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All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained


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Mysteryshopper
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained
soulman wrote:

Your "explanation" is more BS to avoid the obvious.

It fits the events as described. As science shows, an explanation doesn't have to be obvious to be true. If there was definite evidence of actual information transfer in your account, it might require a different explanation.

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You can't keep writing off valid human experiences as not meeting your "scientific" criteria, which is exactly how science continues to dismiss everything paranormal/metaphysical as bogus.

As explained before, science does not 'dismiss' reported paranormal, or any other, human experiences. Instead it seeks to explain them and, in many cases, is able to do so, without recourse to the paranormal.

Quote:

What do we need to have happen to convince science that the paranormal is real: have Stephen Hawking levitate in his wheelchair? In front of you?

It may surprise you to know that I once worked with a group who tried, very seriously and at length, to achieve levitation through paranormal methods. Sadly, no positive results were obtained.

This is indeed the central problem with the paranormal. There is no shortage of anecdotal reports but when the time comes to produce concrete results, it always fails to turn up.

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soulman
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained

As I detail in my books, I have catalogued more than 80 differing "paranormal" or "metaphysical" events (which I consider all emanating from our spiritual nature). And I am sure there are others waiting to be discovered.

Either humanity is hallucinating at an ever-accelerating rate throughout history, or science has turned a blind eye to this preponderance of evidence. (Which the Church forced it to do five centuries ago.)

You can't conjure up paranormal/metaphysical events on command, like a dog and pony show. We have not learned how to manipulate our spiritual nature to such a degree -- yet.

Until Hawking levitates, science will continue blindly rejecting all evidence of the paranormal "because that can't happen." Just like James Randi claims.

Mysteryshopper
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained
soulman wrote:

Either humanity is hallucinating at an ever-accelerating rate throughout history, or science has turned a blind eye to this preponderance of evidence.

I don't know of any evidence that the rate at which humanity is hallucinating is changing. Do you?

Hallucinations, such as REM intrusion, form only a minority of paranormal reports. Most reports of paranormal experiences are misperception which is a completely normal consequence of the way our brains work, manufacturing bits they cannot perceive properly. Memory alteration also plays a significant role in paranormal reports, as does coincidence, neither of which involve hallucination.

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You can't conjure up paranormal/metaphysical events on command, like a dog and pony show. We have not learned how to manipulate our spiritual nature to such a degree -- yet.

In haunted locations, paranormal activity is reported to be happening on a regular basis. Thousands of investigators (including me!) spend many hours in such locations, usually armed with lots of sophisticated recording equipment, and yet they still have failed to record even one bit of hard scientific evidence so far. Even if the paranormal only crops up now and again, when it feels like it, you would expect SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE to have been around with suitable recording equipment to have captured it at least once, given the amount of effort being put in.

Do you have any evidence that the paranormal cannot be controlled?

Quote:

Until Hawking levitates, science will continue blindly rejecting all evidence of the paranormal "because that can't happen." Just like James Randi claims.

You keep repeating this point, even though I've already dealt with it at least twice. Instead of me going through the way science works yet again, I have a couple of questions for you.

Can you tell me which bit of the scientific method you think I have got wrong, and based on what evidence?

Can you also quote a specific scientist who has said 'that can't happen' about the paranormal because I can't think of one?

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soulman
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained

MS:

You asked: "Can you tell me which bit of the scientific method you think I have got wrong, and based on what evidence?"

(I have already addressed that, in my response to you about your dismissal of my two-way mental telepathy.)

You also asked: "Can you also quote a specific scientist who has said 'that can't happen' about the paranormal because I can't think of one?

Although this doesn't specifically answer your question, it illustrates the wall of opposition erected by science against the paranormal, excerpted from "Awakening The Soul: Book 2":

"Convincing mainstream science to change its 400 years of denial will not be easy. As author Michael Talbot noted in Beyond the Quantum: “Many scientists are so convinced that paranormal functioning does not exist that no amount of evidence, no matter how substantiated or credible, will ever persuade them that it does. For example, (physicists Hal) Puthoff and (Russell) Targ report that in submitting one article on remote viewing, one response they received from an ‘expert’ ... was, ‘This is the kind of thing that I would not believe in even if it existed.’”

"So deep is the doubt of mainstream science, that a 1988 study of parapsychology, conducted for the U.S. Army by the prestigious National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences entitled Enhancing Human Performance concluded: “The Committee finds no scientific justification from research conducted over a period of 130 years for the existence of parapsychological phenomena.” This damning judgment was rendered without a complete review of those same studies. At the same time, the government was continuing to fund secret experiments in remote viewing, which proved remarkably accurate."(231) (c) Awakening The Soul

Although my comment about "hallucinations being on the rise" was made metaphorically, here is some evidence to support that:

Ghost sightings highest in 25 years

Spooky sightings of ghouls, ghosts and evil spirits are higher than they have been in the past 25 years, according to a new report on haunted Britain.

"There have been nearly 1,000 reports of demonic activity in the past quarter of a century, with Yorkshire the nation's most ghostly county.

"Encounters with devils, demons and evil spirits are as widespread today as they were in medieval times, researchers claim.

The research was led by the UKs leading authority on the unexplained Lionel Fanthorpe who studied various archives and websites as well as his own reports to identify all sightings and recordings of supernatural beings with satanic qualities.

The study found that despite being in time of accelerating technology, 21st century Britons have not turned their back on ghouls, boggarts, hell-hounds, witches, wizards, banshees and black magic curses, with a whopping 968 reports of demonic activity in the past 25 years.

The report indentifies Yorkshire as the centre of ghostly goings-on demonic activity with 74 reports of demons, including Uncabus and Succubus (male and female demons that make sexual attacks on sleeping victims), instances of demonic possession and sightings of hell hounds, water demons and demons with repulsive forms such as ghouls and werewolves.

Sightings of demons in Yorkshire have included a hideous shadow-like hell-hound with no discernible facial features which collided with a car between Northallerton and Leeming Bar on the A684. A sea-going water demon has also been reported off Filey Bay in Yorkshire. Witnesses claimed to have seen a ghostly creature with a long neck, a vast serpentine body and glowing eyes.

Devonshire rated second in the study with 57 reports of sinister activity, mainly from encounters with or sightings of demons with devil like qualities.

On Dartmoor there have been reports that the demonic shape of a man named Stephens who committed suicide still appears and bodes ill for those who encounter it his grave. The apparition is described as hideously skeletal and dressed in the ragged remnants of a grey robe.

Third in the ghoulish league table is Somerset, which hosts the highest number of monsters and has 51 sightings or reports of demonic entities, with Wiltshire coming in fourth with 46 sightings of demons.

Wiltshire is one of the most popular areas for sightings of phantom dogs, shucks or hell-hounds. At Black Dog Hill near Black Dog Woods in Chapmanslade, there are reports of a huge black hound with eyes like red hot coals.

People in Inverness report sightings of 13 water ghosts in the last 25 years, evil spirits whose main purpose is to lure their victims into dangerous water and then drown them. The water ghosts contribute to the area's overall total of 39 demonic beings and one of the most notorious water ghosts resides in the area of Boat of Garten, which lies on each side of the River Spey, near Chapeltown and Tulloch Moor. The paranormal reports from Boat of Garten involve an ancient, inscribed stone visible when the river is at its lowest. According to legend, the stone is cursed and guarded by a malevolent water-demon, or kelpie-type entity, who protects it savagely. Anyone touching it or attempting to move it is said to become prey to this aquatic, demonic being.

The Demonic Britain report was carried out for the latest DVD release of US TV series Supernatural, normally broadcast on the cable channel Living.

Lionel Fanthorpe said: This report clearly shows we are a nation still rich in sightings and reports of devils, demons and evil spirits of various forms.

"The present human population is many times greater than it was in the past. Therefore the more people that there are, statistically, the more potential encounters they might have with these unpleasant, non-human entities.

(This posting is NOT an endorsement of these claims. I don't believe in 99% of these spooks, goblins, etc.)

Mysteryshopper
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained
soulman wrote:

MS:

You asked: "Can you tell me which bit of the scientific method you think I have got wrong, and based on what evidence?"

(I have already addressed that, in my response to you about your dismissal of my two-way mental telepathy.)

I didn't dismiss your experience at all. I accepted it happened just as you said. What I did was to show that your explanation of the episode (two way telepathy) is not the only possible explanation. Where there are two or more possible explanations for a phenomenon, science normally applies the one that requires the fewest agencies, particularly novel ones. My explanation requires no new agencies while yours requires ESP which has not been scientifically validated as yet.

I think you are confusing reported incidents with possible explanations. No one disputes that people have apparently paranormal experiences or that they occur as reported. What IS in dispute is that they have only one likely explanation.

You have not said precisely where you think my explanation of the scientific method is wrong. Could you do so, please as I am still at a loss as to what it is?

Quote:

You also asked: "Can you also quote a specific scientist who has said 'that can't happen' about the paranormal because I can't think of one?

Although this doesn't specifically answer your question, it illustrates the wall of opposition erected by science against the paranormal, excerpted from "Awakening The Soul: Book 2":

"Convincing mainstream science to change its 400 years of denial will not be easy. As author Michael Talbot noted in Beyond the Quantum: “Many scientists are so convinced that paranormal functioning does not exist that no amount of evidence, no matter how substantiated or credible, will ever persuade them that it does. For example, (physicists Hal) Puthoff and (Russell) Targ report that in submitting one article on remote viewing, one response they received from an ‘expert’ ... was, ‘This is the kind of thing that I would not believe in even if it existed.’”

This is you quoting someone else who is ALSO unable to name a specific scientist who has denied that the paranormal is possible. It is not scientific to deny that the paranormal is possible since, at any time, someone might come up with the evidence to say it is true. All we can say at present is that we haven't yet reached that stage.

Quote:

"So deep is the doubt of mainstream science, that a 1988 study of parapsychology, conducted for the U.S. Army by the prestigious National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences entitled Enhancing Human Performance concluded: “The Committee finds no scientific justification from research conducted over a period of 130 years for the existence of parapsychological phenomena.” This damning judgment was rendered without a complete review of those same studies. At the same time, the government was continuing to fund secret experiments in remote viewing, which proved remarkably accurate."(231) (c) Awakening The Soul

So which studies DID this committee examine? Just the ones that had negative results? Without stating whether or not the committee examined a representative sample of all the studies over 130 years, your point, presumably implying bias, is not justified.

Furthermore, there are many scientists doing parapsychological experiments right now. In the UK, several universities, like Edinburgh, have parapsychology departments. There are also a large number of academically trained scientists doing paranormal research in their own time. So far they have still failed to come up with definitive evidence in favour of the paranormal but the important point is, they are still looking. If scientists really believed the paranormal was impossible, all such scientific research would stop.

Quote:

Although my comment about "hallucinations being on the rise" was made metaphorically, here is some evidence to support that: ...

Trends in things like ghost or UFO sightings tend to follow the media. If there are more books, films, TV programmes about the paranormal, there will be more sightings. Given the rise in ghost hunting TV shows this is entirely to be expected.

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soulman
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained

MS, I didn't expect you to accept anything I said as proof, just to point out that I'm not alone in my skepticism of science.

As I said earlier, we disagree. Continuing this give and take is not proving anything for you, but it's taking up a lot of my time.

You will have an excuse, an exception, a reason to dismiss of all evidence until it happens to you. And I doubt if it (a paranormal experience) ever will occur to you because of your proclivity to quickly find a way to "disprove" all claims.

Being "open-minded" means just that, and despite your claims,I don't think you are, ala your quick dismissal of my telepathy experience.

Mysteryshopper
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained
soulman wrote:

MS, I didn't expect you to accept anything I said as proof, just to point out that I'm not alone in my skepticism of science.

There is no such concept as proof in science (except in certain mathematical theorems). Science is about the balance of the evidence at any given time and where it points overall. So far the balance of evidence is against the paranormal but it could move in its favour at any time. If someone provides sufficiently robust evidence science will accept the paranormal.

Quote:

As I said earlier, we disagree. Continuing this give and take is not proving anything for you, but it's taking up a lot of my time.

I agree this thread is getting a bit bogged down. You seem reluctant to accept my characterisation of science. You don't have to believe what I say, just try reading a book on the philosophy of science. If you find something there that I've got wrong, feel free to tell me!

Quote:

You will have an excuse, an exception, a reason to dismiss of all evidence until it happens to you. And I doubt if it (a paranormal experience) ever will occur to you because of your proclivity to quickly find a way to "disprove" all claims.

I NEVER dismiss evidence! This is the bit you seem to have a problem with. What we differ on is our INTERPRETATION of what the evidence means, not its contents.

As I mentioned before, I have seen several ghosts. I've also had some OOBEs and many other apparently paranormal experiences. I've also been present when others have claimed to be having a paranormal experience that I did not share. In each case I was able to investigate these incidents AT THE TIME, which almost no paranormal witness ever does (not through any fault of theirs but because most have no experience of paranormal research). Investigating at the time of the incident, with all the evidence still close at hand, is so much more informative and decisive than doing it after the event. In every case I was able to explain the experience without recourse to the paranormal, using the evidence present at the time.

So my enquiring mind does not seem to have stopped me having apparently paranormal experiences, which did not differ materially in any way from those reported by other witnesses.

Far from making me believe in the paranormal, however, these experiences demonstrated to me, graphically, just how such experiences actually work (mostly through the still little understood mechanisms of perception). Theory is all very well but it is great to see these things work in real life.

Quote:

Being "open-minded" means just that, and despite your claims,I don't think you are, ala your quick dismissal of my telepathy experience.

This is an example of how we're going round in circles so let me ask you a couple of straight questions:

i) I have said I accept that the events you described happened as you said. Do you accept that?

ii) I say there is more than one way that the events you describe could happen. Do you accept that?

iii) Would you say it was open-minded to consider ALL possible explanations for an incident before deciding which you think is the most likely?

iv) Do you accept that apparently paranormal reports can sometimes be caused by non-paranormal phenomena?

These are not 'trick' questions, I am honestly interested in your views.

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soulman
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained

MS:

If you had responded to what I believe was an incident of two-way mental telepathy in a curious manner, instead of instantly writing it off to some other cause -- without asking one single question to further ascertain the facts -- I would believe you.

I experienced it -- not you. I knew what it was -- not you. Yet you didn't didn't want to accept my knowledge of the event, nor obtain further facts before leaping to judgement.

Here's your answer:

"You call it two-way telepathy but there was no actual swapping of verifiable information or even deliberate attempted communication. It tends to illustrate my point about things often being not quite as expected when full details are ascertained."

You instantly dismissed it as probably being from some other cause, hardly the hallmark of a serious scientific investigator. YOU DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE IT WAS TELEPATHY.

Does that sound scientific to you? Does that sound open-minded to you?

I don't think it is -- thus my reaction to your Doubting Thomas attitude. You are applying your standards to someone's experience.

If this is the strict scientific standard you apply to all reported incidents of paranormal activity, I doubt if you will ever find one you can certify.

Mysteryshopper
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained
soulman wrote:

If you had responded to what I believe was an incident of two-way mental telepathy in a curious manner, instead of instantly writing it off to some other cause -- without asking one single question to further ascertain the facts -- I would believe you.

It wasn't an investigation. If it had been I would have asked a great many questions (not in a public forum), done a lot of background research and I would not have suggested an explanation unless you specifically asked me.

As it was, I was just curious as you said it was a case of two-way telepathy which is very unusual. I was hoping some specific information had been exchanged in two directions, making it possibly verifiable.

Quote:

I experienced it -- not you. I knew what it was -- not you. Yet you didn't didn't want to accept my knowledge of the event, nor obtain further facts before leaping to judgement.

I don't understand what you mean. I DID accept your knowledge of the events - you explained quite clearly what happened. If there were further facts available that convinced you it was telepathy, I assume you would have mentioned them when you heard my own theory.

Quote:

You instantly dismissed it as probably being from some other cause, hardly the hallmark of a serious scientific investigator. YOU DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE IT WAS TELEPATHY.

You've missed my point. It MIGHT have been telepathy but because no specific verifiable information was exchanged, there is no way of knowing. I told you an alternative scenario that also fitted the events, as described, and there is no objective way of telling them apart. If forced to choose between the two theories, a scientist would go with the one involving the fewest agencies, particularly novel ones.

Quote:

Does that sound scientific to you? Does that sound open-minded to you? I don't think it is -- thus my reaction to your Doubting Thomas attitude. You are applying your standards to someone's experience.

Yes it is scientific. Unfortunately, in science we sometimes have to admit that there is insufficient information to decide between two or more alternative theories that could each account for the evidence. This is just such a case. At these times science says it is not safe to come to a definite conclusion. Such information is then not used by science. Science is based on empirical, verifiable evidence.

Quote:

If this is the strict scientific standard you apply to all reported incidents of paranormal activity, I doubt if you will ever find one you can certify.

When a case presents itself where there is only one possible theory then that theory will be accepted, whether it is paranormal or otherwise. This scientific approach has served perfectly well in other fields of enquiry so there is no obvious reason why it should not succeed for rhe paranormal.

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soulman
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Re: All metaphysical / paranormal phenomena explained

MS:

You said: "This scientific approach has served perfectly well in other fields of enquiry so there is no obvious reason why it should not succeed for rhe paranormal."

I disagree. I believe all "paranormal" and "metaphysical" (as well as psi, parapsychology, etc.) events are ALL caused/induced by our spiritual nature.

You are applying material standards to spiritual events, which will not work in most instances. (And "spiritual" does not mean "religious," for it is a state of being for all humanity.)

You keep on testing and doubting. I'll continue believing, and when the shit hits the fan, we'll see who is right. You will be holding an empty bag, and mine will be filled with the spiritual beliefs I hold -- which explain every single episode we call "paranormal/metaphysical" etc.



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