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Creatures in scotland


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PBA4231
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wht evidence is there to support that t here is creatures living in loch morar. 

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Ian Topham
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Re: Creatures in scotland

I think there is very little evidence to support the existence of sea monsters (for want of a better description) in any Scottish loch, and what evidence there is seems to be annecdotal.  There are many lochs with traditions of being the home of a monster, but these should probably be considered folklore.  I personally believe a lot of sightings are probably down to mistaken identity or some other kind of misperception. 

Until somebody actually comes up with a live or dead creature I will not be convinced I fear, however, that does not make any reported sighting useless and stories of loch monsters are part of Scottish culture, so it is very important that we record them to preserve these traditions.

PBA4231
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Re: Creatures in scotland

ive got to say i am in love with the idea ofsea monsters. although what you say does make sense. however ther are a few things that still make this a mystery for meand not folklore. such as not so long ago they found underwater caves in loch ness that lead to the sea. and nearly every loch a monster has been spotted is connected to loch ness. a bit of fanasty maybe but we cant rule anything out as other countrys havea monster to. is something using underwater caves to travel. 

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Ian Topham
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Re: Creatures in scotland

I would love for sea monsters to be real, but the existence of underwater caves and passages does not really support their existence, it is just a possible excuse as to why we have not found them yet.

If these creatures are anything like the marine dinosaurs that roamed the oceans they would be top of the food chain and unless they are immortal, they must be breeding and there must be more than one of them.  Given their numbers, the fact they would have nothing to fear  in the natural world and the amount of food they must need, they will be active n a daily basis.  I find it very hard to believe that if they exist, we have not got good evidence especially given satellite and sonar capabilities and the amount of ocean going traffic we have in this day and age.

Mauro
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Re: Creatures in scotland

The Loch Morar monster (or Morag, as it's affectionately known) is often called "Scotland's second best known water monster" immediately after the world-famous Nessie. According to Ronan Coghlan it has been sighted about fifty times since the first documented sighting in 1895 (actually a man named James Macdonald claimed to have seen a kelpie in the loch in 1887).
In 1969 Morag allegedly struck a boat piloted by Duncan McDonell and William Simpson and was driven off with an oar. Simpson shot at it with a hunting rifle, apparently missing but frightening it off. It was about 25 ft long, brown and with a snakelike head.
Of course such a description doesn't match any known animal but recalls VERY closely a livid painting of Nessie I saw as child in which the creature was slipping back in the loch with a lamb in its jaws.
While Nessie supporters have underwater and sonar recordings as proof, Morag supporters have fared much worse since no serious effort has ever been done to gather evidence or attempt to catch the creature.

__________________

"Louhi spoke in riddled tones of three things to achieve: find and catch the Devil's Moose and bring it here to me. Seize the Stallion born of Fire, harness the Golden Horse. He captured and bound the Moose, he tamed the Golden Horse. Still there remained one final task: hunt for the Bird from the Stream of Death"

-Kalevala, Rune XIII-


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BaronIveagh
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Re: Creatures in scotland

Hmmm...

It's a tough one.  I don't know of any good solid evidence on Morag, however, I can think of some on her more famous counterpart.  None of it is a slam dunk, as they say, though. 

The problme is two fold: One, the ocean can harbor animals over a hundred feet long, easy, that we never see.  (ex. Giant Squid) One of the current theories is that since there have been sightings on land, that they're actually migrating to the Loch to breed, and then returning to the ocean.  This would explain why there is a remarkable consistancy aroudn the world.  And why there are so few sightings.

The second problem is photoshop.  It's getting to the point that even experts are being baffled  by well exicuted hoaxes.  Phtographic evidence isn't what it used to be. 

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

PBA4231
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Re: Creatures in scotland

Baronlveagh i think you have a really good point. Maybe thats why there are so few sightings. Maybe they use lochs to breed. They would feel protected there, because no real predator lives here. But where has the sightings on land took place?
With loch morar really interests me because there is no acess road round the loch, so why has it claim prize to be scotlands second known monster?
I still think there has to me a maze of network tunnels connecting different lochs. which would explain all the different sightings.

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Creatures in scotland

I don't recall the details myself.  I do remember reading some in Mackel's book on Loch Ness, as well as some recounted in the late 1970's National Geographic artical.  There was one or two in the River Ness, as well.  

IIRC one scared the crap out of a cottage dweller near the River Ness one night.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

Mauro
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Re: Creatures in scotland

After many years pondering the question I became convinced of the "multicausal" explanation for the Loch Ness monster.
Hoaxes (some crude, other well thought), motorboat wakes, mirages, waterbirds, floating logs and seals (both the Harbor and Gray seal have been documented in the Loch)  have all contributed to the myth. Add on top a superb scenery, the thrill of monster hunting in a friendly place with any imaginable confort and an extremely well orchestrated media machine and you have it.
Unfortunately we haven't got as many elements for Loch Morar but I strongly suspect we may look at Loch Ness for hints.
The thought of a viable population of large water creatures in a body of water like Loch Morar poses so many problems that I don't even know where to start...

__________________

"Louhi spoke in riddled tones of three things to achieve: find and catch the Devil's Moose and bring it here to me. Seize the Stallion born of Fire, harness the Golden Horse. He captured and bound the Moose, he tamed the Golden Horse. Still there remained one final task: hunt for the Bird from the Stream of Death"

-Kalevala, Rune XIII-


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BaronIveagh
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Re: Creatures in scotland

Hmm...

Except that if it's something migratory, it might not eat there at all. 

The thing I find strange is that the explainations of why it isn't a large animal are occasionally more elaborate then the explainations of how a large animal might survive (a survey of fish populations in the Loch revealed a surpisingly high number of arctic char below a certain depth.).  One of my favorites was an expert claiming that it was a line of 30 or more(!) otters, that happened to climb a log in such a way that one end rose out fo the water while they pushed it along.

Occam's Razor suggests the simplest answer is most often the correct one.  In this case, it seems more likely that there is simply a unknown animal (my pet theory is a species of eel) in the very deep lake that we have not catalogued yet.  It is a great deal simpler then a large number of elaborate illusions that happen to all look lik some sort of animal.  (I'll leave deliberate hoaxes aside, as the sheer number of sightings, which stretches into the tens of thousands, are probably not hoaxes.  It would have taken an army of practifcal jokers centuries to set up all of these, so at least some legitimate sightings of an unknown creature do exist)

Unfortunetly, Loch Ness's high peat concentrations make the traditional scientific way to determine if there is something there, ie, send divers or mini subs, is largly precluded by the soup-like water conditions.  Other means have produced mixed results, with plenty of accusations of fraud to go around.  

Amusingly, to me, the same techniques used by Rhimes in 1972 to take the 'fin' images were used to capture some of the few images we have of living giant squid, which are considered to be unimpeachable fact. 

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

Mauro
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Re: Creatures in scotland

One of the issues with Loch Morar is that the salmon population was pretty much exterminated by overfishing by the '70s. You would assume that one would be caught or at very least spotted so many times as to give a consistent identikit.
For example the aquatic variety of the Australian Bunyip has such a consistent identikit as to allow us to identify it as a stray sea lion/fur seal. The fact that a few were caught in the River Murray, hundreds of miles from the sea, simply confirmed this suspicion.(And when of them was shot at and examined it was found to have a freshly eaten platypus in its stomach!).
Sadly there isn't a consistent description for Morag.
A very large fish could be an interesting candidate, though from here to saying that it's a completely unknown species it's a bit rash. Most European lakes have extremely large specimen of well known fish: pike, carp, lake trout, sturgeon etc which contributed to the freshwater monster tradition.

A recent "Internet fad" is trying to explain most freshwater monsters with "eunuch eels" (not joking, just ask the chaps at the CFZ, they coined the term). According to folklore these are sterile eels which become resident to a given body of water and grow to quite prodigious sizes.
However while sterile eels which do not migrate to the Sargasso Sea are well known to science (and can achieve quite incredible lifespans) they do not appear to grow any larger than "regular" eels. The largest European eel documented was 133cm long (a little over 4 ft) and weighed 6.6 kg (14.5 lb). Even assuming for witness exageration it's a far cry from the monster 20 ft reports surfacing on the Internet.

__________________

"Louhi spoke in riddled tones of three things to achieve: find and catch the Devil's Moose and bring it here to me. Seize the Stallion born of Fire, harness the Golden Horse. He captured and bound the Moose, he tamed the Golden Horse. Still there remained one final task: hunt for the Bird from the Stream of Death"

-Kalevala, Rune XIII-




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