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Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?


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MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 I'm afraid I must agree with you Baron. You are quite correct with both your statements. I was more drawn to Tautha De Danann / Danu just by the mere close connection verbally.

Flag of Essex.svg

I've also wondered if there are no Scythian Presence in the Isles why would the Flag of Essex contain 3 Scimitars. I do not know why they show up on an Essex flag thats for sure.

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

No idea, as the Scytheans did not have scimitars.  The Scimitar as we now know it appeared around the 12th century and did not reach England until thje 16th. 

Essex coat of arms is supposed to depict three Saxon sæx.  This was, supposedly, it's the coat of arms of Æscwine who founded the Kingdom of Essex.  Why it looks that way now may be due to artistic license during the 19th Century.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optim

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

*double post due to server error*

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 Yes again I have to agree with you Baron They are "called "Sea Axes" Or Daggars but these certainly don't look like daggars of any discription. And the Flag and coat of arms date from the 4th century. Which is my question how in the world did they show up in Essex in the 4th century... Odd indeed..

The word scimitar can mean Scythian Arm and and many a man way laid to rest in a cemetery or scemetery by a scimitar I would guess.


Skunkha, king of the Sakā tigraxaudā ("wearing pointed caps Sakae", a group of Scythian tribes). Detail of Behistun Inscription.

Perhaps this is where the gnome came from?

But I tend to see the Scythian or Scothian as more of a archer and chairiot based people hence the term dart or Scoti. 

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

"The English term scimitar is attested from the mid-16th century, derives from either the Middle French cimeterre (15c.) or from the Italian scimitarra. The ultimate source of these terms is unknown. Perhaps they are corruptions of the Persian shamshir," - Wikipedia.

"Shamshir" litterally just means a sword in general. 


A Seax with replica

What happened was that an anacronsm emerged.  The Essex coat of arms was assigned in 1932, though an engraving of it exists in Speed's
1611 Saxon Heptarchy but the engraving, as is common of such things of that period, does not match the description, three seaxes argent, in a field gules. (and shows Æscwine in clothes that are far too new).  Speed himself implies that the coat of arms is a fabrication of contemporary heralds, as coats of arms only became common following the Norman invasion. 

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MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 Yes the first depiction of the 3 Scimitar was indeed  in 1611. 


Depiction of the first king of the East Saxons, Æscwine, his shield showing the three seaxes emblem attributed to him (fromJohn Speed's 1611 Saxon Heptarchy).

The picture was done in 1611 ... but it depicts a 5th century king bearing the 3 Scimitars. Which tells me that the painter had good reason to believe the 3 Scimitars were the arms of the first king of Essex in 1611. I would not conclude that the arms were in first use in 1611. 

At the end of the day a 3 foot scimitar is not a 12 inch daggar and british swords were straight in nature not curved to the best of my knowledge.

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
MacNova wrote:

 Yes the first depiction of the 3 Scimitar was indeed  in 1611. 


Depiction of the first king of the East Saxons, Æscwine, his shield showing the three seaxes emblem attributed to him (fromJohn Speed's 1611 Saxon Heptarchy).

The picture was done in 1611 ... but it depicts a 5th century king bearing the 3 Scimitars. Which tells me that the painter had good reason to believe the 3 Scimitars were the arms of the first king of Essex in 1611. I would not conclude that the arms were in first use in 1611. 

At the end of the day a 3 foot scimitar is not a 12 inch daggar and british swords were straight in nature not curved to the best of my knowledge.

The engraving was done by Joost de Hondt (aka Jodocus Hondius) who lived in Amsterdam.  I might suggest he barely knew what England looked like, let alone a 5th Century Monarch or a saxon sword.  (If you want a good laugh, what he thought contemporary people like the Chinese looked like)

Speed's description comes from Richard Verstegan's A Restitution of Decayed Intelligence in Antiquities concerning the most noble and renowned English Nation which was written in Antwerp by a man who also penned what we now call 'propoganda' and was in Exile from England for such things as 'Atrocities of the Protestants'.  Prevous to this, no record exists of any such device for the Kings of EssexPrevious authors on the subject such as Rodger of Wendover make no mention of it.  Speed himself clearly thought it was untrue, but also had no source to refute it, as less is known about Æscwine than is known about most Old Kingdom Egyptian Pharaohs.  He only becomes important when Rodger of Wendover and Matthew Paris both claimed he founded Essex. 

The works of William of Malmesbury, John of Worcester, and, most telling, Henry of Huntingdon's Historia Anglorum, first published in 1129, all point to it being untrue.  Malmesbury and Worchester dismiss him out of hand entirely, and Huntington only lists him as King Sledd's father.  All three attribute Essex founding to Sledd, and Henry in particular was writing much closer to Sledd's own time period, which was only 100 years after Rome abandoned Brittania.

People thought Plutach was a great historian for years, as his work fit thier preconceptions.  But frankly, he fabricated a lot.  I suspect this is a similar case where, due to lack fo any real information, someone made something up that sounded good, and everyone copied it.  Throw in a Dutch engraver that had no idea what a Seax looked like and you have your scimitars

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MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 Ok...

Got a riddle for you

If  an Englishman comes from England and an Irish man comes from Ireland and a Spaniard comes from Spain and a Scythian comes from Scythia where does a Milesian come from?

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
MacNova wrote:

 Ok...

Got a riddle for you

If  an Englishman comes from England and an Irish man comes from Ireland and a Spaniard comes from Spain and a Scythian comes from Scythia where does a Milesian come from?

Spain. Milesians are the supposed descendants of Míl Espáine who's name is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania".They reperesented the last stage of the Gaelic invasion of Ireland during Roman expansion into Iberia.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
BaronIveagh wrote:
MacNova wrote:

 Ok...

Got a riddle for you

If  an Englishman comes from England and an Irish man comes from Ireland and a Spaniard comes from Spain and a Scythian comes from Scythia where does a Milesian come from?

Spain. Milesians are the supposed descendants of Míl Espáine who's name is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania".They reperesented the last stage of the Gaelic invasion of Ireland during Roman expansion into Iberia.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

Now my guess would have been Milesians come from Milesia.



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