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Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?


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MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 Now where did Mil Espaine / Nearchus end up at After he left Karnak in Egypt he went to Galacia from there sailed into the Bay of Biscay and Landed in Carnac, France :) Was killed in a battle with the Pharoah (I'm thinking maybe the Pharoah didn't give Mil his daughter)  in a place called Saumur, France. Here Mil was killed and his body was taken back to Carnac and entombed at what is now called.

Tumulus of St. Michael

Tumulus carnac.jpg 

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
MacNova wrote:

SO if you were a monk or christian scholar you would only be recording the truthand the ancient gibberish well just could not have existed for the simple reason God created the earth around 4000 BC so anything before that was just impossible. There for had to be either lies or just made up. 

The problem with that is that the 4000 BC thing was not the prevailing belief at the time, which was that of Saint Augustine, being that the passage of time was irrelevant to God, and thus the chronology could be of any length, as the exact date of creation was not fixed. (This helped with the conversion of Egypt, which had a written history at the time starting very, very shortly after Creation, according to the 4000BC chronology.  Remember at this point the Library had not yet been burned when the conversion of Egypt was begun).

Ussher's Annales Veteris Testamenti was not going to be published for another 400 years. 

THe prolbme with calling all this legend is that written histories existed at the time for all the actual events.  The Romans had extensive histories covering the wars in Iberia and Gaul, while the egyptians make no mention of these events, and were pretty good at covering royal weddings.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optim

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
BaronIveagh wrote:
MacNova wrote:

SO if you were a monk or christian scholar you would only be recording the truthand the ancient gibberish well just could not have existed for the simple reason God created the earth around 4000 BC so anything before that was just impossible. There for had to be either lies or just made up. 

The problem with that is that the 4000 BC thing was not the prevailing belief at the time, which was that of Saint Augustine, being that the passage of time was irrelevant to God, and thus the chronology could be of any length, as the exact date of creation was not fixed. (This helped with the conversion of Egypt, which had a written history at the time starting very, very shortly after Creation, according to the 4000BC chronology.  Remember at this point the Library had not yet been burned when the conversion of Egypt was begun).

Ussher's Annales Veteris Testamenti was not going to be published for another 400 years. 

THe prolbme with calling all this legend is that written histories existed at the time for all the actual events.  The Romans had extensive histories covering the wars in Iberia and Gaul, while the egyptians make no mention of these events, and were pretty good at covering royal weddings.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optim

The 4000 BC was an arbitrary date just used as an example but I see what your saying.

To be sure Rome and Egypt kept good records but their record was written from a Victors prospective.

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 SO how is that for an alternative history of Ireland :) Of course none of it is proven but it does raise some interesting questions does it not?

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
MacNova wrote:

 SO how is that for an alternative history of Ireland :) Of course none of it is proven but it does raise some interesting questions does it not?

The only real problem with it is it flies in the face of so much that is known history.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 Baron you are so right it really does., But that's what happens when you align the dates by generation. Like I said you should see what happens to the Tautha De Dannanu. They are now meeting the Milesians in 323 BC instead of 2000 years earlier. The Furbolgs are said to be escaped greek slaves in the Irish history.

Greek :

Published in Piping Times
February 1995
Caesar's Bagpipes
By Frank J. Timoney

Caesar's Bagpipes

In Italy today, there is a most strange and staggering tradition among players of the Italian Bagpipe (a very small group indeed) that the Celtic tribes in England worshipped the bagpipe! The legend says that Caesar, during the conquest of Britain, in an effort to keep the Roman casualties to a minimum, decided to ambush the Celtic forces and frighten the forces of their mounted troops. He did this by gathering together all of the players of the UTRICULARIS and caused them to lay in concealment, and at the pre-arranged signal, all of the pipers played at once. The Celtic horses bolted, threw their riders and the Roman Army rushed in and annihilated the force. When the Britons understood the cause of their defeat, they immediately considered the bagpipe an instrument of divine nature with magical qualities. For this reason, they were lured by its sound to the point of idolizing and worshipping it to conquer its magic. After some time, the British copied the Roman instrument. This traditional tale was published in M. Gioiellis' "LE ZAMPOGNE DI GIULIO CASARE" in a magazine called "MONDO MOLISE".
I have been assured that all Italian pipers and pipe makers know this legend and have passed it down all through the centuries. Now before you laugh, as I did, keep in mind that the Italian players are mainly shepherds, living in rural areas, some illiterate, without any piping societies, and probably not in contact with players of other forms of bagpipes, especially the Great Highland Bagpipe. The ledge certainly predates the Gloster Altar find! So we can readily see that the bagpipe in England is certainly the oldest in the British Isles.
I had come across the same legend some years ago in the journal of the Italian Bagpipers' Society of Rome. In the December 1970 issue of the Piping Times there was a reprint of an article called "Syrinx and Bagpipe" by Francis Collinson, which he had published earlier in "Antiquity" magazine.
In the "Antiquity" article, Collinson mentions an archaeological find in Gloucester, England, of a small altar, ca. 2nd century AD depicting a figure playing an early type of bagpipe. It's a clear indication that the Britons really did worship the instrument.
Collinson identified the figure with the Roman god Atys which hitherto was never depicted as a piper.
There was a recent article that reminded us of Collinson's statement in his book on the bagpipe, that there was no evidence of the instrument either in writings, carvings or archaeological remains in Britain. Obviously, Collinson proved himself wrong in his later "Antiquity" article. England became quite the centre of the piping world after the legions left in the fourth or fifth century AD. Indeed the bagpipe there flourished in Worcestershire, Nottinghamshire and Lancashire which produced noted pipers. Areas such as Cornwall, Northumberland, Lancashire and Lincolnshire produced their own types of bagpipe.
Strong evidence seems to indicate that the Irish got the instrument from invading Anglo Norman armies. It is first mentioned in Ireland some fifty years afterwards. Among the Normans, it has the same sort of development as in England. France produced at least seven varieties of bagpipe. In common use for dancing and all festive occasions, and employed at church services and religious ceremonies, it became a fashionable instrument at the courts of both countries by the eleventh century.
The bagpipe in Scotland is probably as old as that found in England. Its playing must have been noted by those who tried breach Hadrian's Wall in all their blue finery. It must have worked its way up by the time of the Normans who also had lands in Scotland. Certainly the bellows are to be of continental origin.
When I first heard the legend, I immediately got my copies of "Notices of Pipers," which was published in many issues of the Piping Times. The "Notices" were compiled by Lieutenant John MacLennan and revised and added to by Major I.H. MacKay Scobie and Archibald Campbell of Kilberry. Scobie was a fanatic on anything Scottish. As curator of the Scottish National Naval and Military Museum, he altered many old engravings by adding in items he thought the original artists had left out!
They mentioned all kinds of ancient people who supposedly wrote of the bagpipe in olden times. Prudentius, Seneca, Virgil, Martial, Aulus Gellius and, in particular, Quintilianus Aristides who purportedly refers to the bagpipe in Scotland ca AD 100, and Procopius who supposedly refers to the pipe bands in Britain ca 6th century AD. I consulted the Loeb Classical Library and after going through some 100 volumes found that Procopius never got to the British Isles, never mentioned the bagpipe and that Quintilianus Aristides never mentioned Scotland or the bagpipe!
Knowing Kilberry's credentials to be spotless, I was stymied as to where the "Notices" drew its misinformation from.
Then I remembered Dr. Grattan Flood of Dublin. He produced a totally worthless "History" of the bagpipe around 1911 and he fanatically endeavoured to give Ireland a historical claim to the premiership of the bagpipe, which it never had. Fortunately, Kilberry and Scobie saw through it and their "notices" on Flood reflect a warning that he was prejudiced to the Highland pipe. However, Flood listed the same ancient world characters that are in the "Notices" and it at once becomes apparent that Kilberry and Scobie copied him, never realizing that here too, Flood was fabricating. It is my guess that this part of the "Notices" was left to Scobie, as Kilberry was fully involved with the publication of his book on piobaireachd at that point in time. This is why I feel that the "Notices" are not to be relied upon prior to 1800.
Flood's book gave an important push to the fledgling Irish pipe industry. This had only started around 1900 when Henry Starck, who had been a partner of William Ross, piper to HM Queen Vistoria, went around to all the Irish infantry regiments and convinced the younger Anglo Irish officers to adopt the bagpipe which Irish regiments never had. "Pipers" were easily obtained by draughts from the regimental flute bands, fingertips and all!
Starck even introduced the "Brien Boru War Pipe" to two regiments. The rest chose castrated Highland pipes. There was a great outcry from the older officers on the loss of the old flute bands and an even greater outcry as the kilt began to be issued in these regiments. It was stated in many regiments that it was nothing more than aping the Scot.
Thankfully, Starck's abortion never came to much. Although invented by others, the pipers who had to play them never thought much of the sham. "The man who invented these hated pipes" was the overall sentiment by all, except of course, the young officers.
But Grattan Flood lived on. The Irish clung to his absurdities with desperate tenacity. Until this day he is quoted by all remaining Irish regiments and sadly even in Scotland. As time went on, others added to his misclaims. In 1923, "A Short History of the Bagpipes" was published in the "Faug a Ballagh," a regimental publication of the Royal Irish Fusiliers. This was submitted by the sergeants' mess and was nothing more than a quoting of Grattan Flood, who supposedly helped with the article.
Concerning Martial, the Roman general, it was claimed, "he 'described' the bagpipe in his Epigrams, Book 10, as consisting of a blowpipe, bag, single drone and chanter" but all Martial said was, "Et concupiscat esse Canus ascaules?" (And Canus longs to be a bagpipe-player?) But Flood will live on because rumour has it that someone with little to do is about to reprint it. Perhaps it will also have a new preface by a World's Greatest Piper.
To Cicero we will leave the last words; "Ubiam suas Gentis?"
Published in Piping Times
1995
In Response to Readers' Questions Regarding "Caesar's Bagpipes"

The book, "The Bagpipe," by Francis Collinson must be taken with a grain of salt (as well "The International Piper" magazine.) Collinson was correct in some things and not correct in other things. He had cause to retract his statement that there was "no evidence of the bagpipe either I writings, carvings or archaeological remains in Britain."
This he did in an article called "Syrinx and Bagpipe" in the magazine "Antiquity" in early 1970. In 1961, during excavations in Gloster, England, a small Roman altar was found, circa 2nd century AD which showed a figure playing what appears to be a bagpipe. It was identified as the Roman god ATYS holding in his right hand, individual pipes and in the crook of his left arm, what appears to be a bag.
EARLY GREEK AND EGYPTIAN SOURCES

Caesar's Bagpipes

There is a striking resemblance in this carving to a Hellenistic figuring, circa 300-100 BC, from Alexandria Egypt, showing a street musician with a bagpipe drone and bag under the left arm. This, Collinson said, "is basically accepted as the earliest unassailable representation of the application of the bag principle to the blowing of a musical pipe." Subsequently, the Cairo Museum announced they had no less then three (3) similar figurines all playing a bagpipe, clothed in the same manner and assigned them to the last century BC during the reigns of Ptolemy VII, Ptolemy IX, and Ptolemy X.
A Greek or Roman engraving, on a gem, of the same period, shows the bagpipe as a fully developed instrument in its own right with two chanters, a drone, a blowpipe and a bag all hanging from a tree. (This formed the cover of the December 1970 issue of The Piping Times which also reprinted the entire "Antiquity" article.)

There is also a small bronze figure of a Roman soldier playing the Tibia Utricularis discovered in the foundations of the Praetorian camp at Richborough.

Figure 3

There is also a small bronze figure of a Roman soldier playing the Tibia Utricularis discovered in the foundations of the Praetorian camp at Richborough (see figure 3).
The first to mention the bagpipe in literature was CHRYSOSTOMOS, a Greek classical writer who, in about 100 AD, refers to a mouth blown bagpipe when he writes of a man who could play the pipe with his mouth on a bag placed under the armpit. This is very similar to the Hellinistic figurines mentioned previously.
The second to mention the bagpipe was the Roman General MARTIAL, in about 93 AD, in his "EPIGRAMS #10," wherein her refers to his friend Canus who desired to be a bagpipe player. Also another Roman, by the name of Suetonius, who in the 2nd century AD reminded us that the Emperor Nero played the TIBA UTRICULARIS.
The word "sumphonia" is not Hebrew, but Greek. There is no ancient Hebrew word for bagpipe. The Old Testament references musical instruments, that are today translated as "piper," "piped," "pipes," meaning any kind of reed instrument. The Book of Daniel was in Aramaic, not Hebrew. Francis Collinson reminds us that the Hebrew word a pipe was "chalil" (the one who praises God). This was a pipe without bag and our words hail and hallelujah come from it. The Chalosan Sculptures do not show as bag pipe. They show a simple reed pipe and these are the type of reeds that are found in Egyptian mummy cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xbzbp8Pff8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHdez2V2Q2M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOwHhPJF1zY&playnext=1&list=PL78A6CD651D1...

And then to Galacia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzF35iRocJA


A detail from the Galician Cantigas de Santa Maria showing bagpipes with one chanter and a parallel drone (13th Century).

dublin
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 bagpipes are a traditional instrument in the mountains of the Balkans, particularly in todays  Macedonia and south of Serbia and Bulgaria, and probably came to Egypt with the Macedonians. 



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