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A double is NOT the same thing as a doppelganger. It is important to differentiate between the two and not use such terms loosely. Anyone can have a double who is simply someone who resembles them closely.
There are very few cases of doppelgangers and I have yet to come across one which is at all compelling.
I think, had you read my first post properly, you might have understood what this discussion is about. The use of 'doppleganger' is purely optional as I do not believe the experiences of those I mentioned in my first post, were, infact, dopplegangers. None the less, as it is debatable, I don't see why people shouldn't use that term.
As these cases were recorded as 'double' incidents, I think we have every right to use the word.
'Double' when applied to those with similiar facial features is a bit lazy anyway... I mean, technically no one is doubled by another completely.
I mean, technically no one is doubled by another completely.
Clones and identical twins.
Eh, I'll tell the story about mine. We had gone back to the house with the floating fireplace insert a year or two later, thinking to try and get some good photographic evidence this time. While I was downstairs talking ot the owners, one of our team excused herself to go to the facilites. When she came out, she saw me sitting there on chair outside th bathroom door, reading a National Geographic. She told 'me' it was vacent, and turned, hearing me talking downstairs, and then turned back, and no one was there.
Unfortunetly, that was the only incident that trip. Much to my chagrin.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
In your first post you mention Goethe's well-known account which is neither double nor doppelganger. He claims to have met his future self which, if taken at face value, would imply some sort of time distortion or projection. Doppelgangers, by contrast, are supposedly identical in every respect, including the apparent age.
People may record such an incident as a double simply because they are not aware of doppelgangers. It doesn't make their use of the term helpful. To use doppelganger and double interchangeably is confusing.
I think a 'double' goes way beyond similar facial features. The double I met was the same height and build as me, as well as having a similar face, and could easily be mistaken for me by anyone but a close friend. I think the resemblance should be striking, similar to identical twins, for someone to be called a double. Such doubles could easily give rise to reports of doppelgangers but a little investigation would soon solve such a case.
Emilie Sagee's case was typical of a doppelganger, rather than a double. The doppelganger was reportedly seen at the same time as the original and even imitated her actions. There is too little material available, however, to come to any conclusion about this case.
Clones and identical twins.
I know several pairs of identical twins who have visible differences. For a start, their vocal cords are never exactly the same. There will be small differences in measurements in facial features, height etc. Yes, it is true that at the beginning, they are completely the same but once a foteus they go on their own course. With clones, they may share the same DNA but they never look like a 'clone' of the person they have been cloned from.
Nature just doesn't tend to create perfect doubles right down to the core.
That is a very interesting experience. Thanks for sharing.
Mysteryshopper, there is no other word but 'double' (that I know of) for the case of Goethe. You seem to have theories which would exclude this word, fair enough but I'd like to continue using it. There is more than one meaning for the word 'double' and one of those is 'two of the same'. Is not meeting yourself mean you are doubled? I'd like to continue using 'double', just as the book I read called it.
Personally, I don't really care about nit picking the words, I want to know about experiences. What I am interested in is finding out how it occured that he met his future self and if it has been experienced by others. I want to know theories. Wasting our time with definitions isn't going to help, so lets just call it quits.
In the Goethe case he wrote "It is strange, however, that, eight years afterward, I found myself on the very road, to pay one more visit to Frederica, in the dress of which I had dreamed, and which I wore, not from choice, but by accident."
Thus the incident he saw originally lster actually happened. He doesn't mention seeing his younger self on this later occasion. The most obvious interpretation is therefore not a double or doppelganger or even a time slip but instead an accurate premonition.
Many premonitions concern events that supposedly will happen to the subject themselves, rather thsn a third party, though they rarely come true. Premonitions come in many forms, like dreams, visions or knowledge simply popping into someone's head. In Goethe's case it appears to have been a daydream. He says "As soon as I shook myself out of this dream, the figure had entirely disappeared."
So my interpretation of this case is not a double or doppelganger but a premonition. It is quite unlike typical doppelganger cases. Indeed, I don't know of any similar examples. Perhaps someone else does.
Actually, I agree with you. Premonition seems most likely.
Another good example of this phenomena from the late 20th century was Dr. Alex Tanous. He was a highly gifted subject who was well-studied at the ASPR.
Tanous was a veridical OBE agent. He was seen in two locations on several occasions. The reports are from very trustworthy sources. The reports were produced in a very timely manner and sent to the ASPR for verification. The details suggest that Tanous' double (who he called "Alex 2") was completely able to interact and was not distinguishable from Alex himself. This double shook hands with experients, drank tea and in every way seemed real.
Except that the double never left any footprints or tracks of any kind. There was just enough strangeness in the experience to cause the experients to realize after the fact that something was not right.
I would suggest that the differentiation among doppelgangers, doubles and so on may be artificial.
What all this pointing to is that our reality may be far more delicate and fragile than we believe. We know from experiments in quantum mechanics that information plays a central role in the existence of our apparent material reality. So it may be that we can, in minor and localized ways, actually influence that information and thus the nature of our perceived reality.
This would explain not only doubles produced during OBEs, but also apparitions of the living in general and even materialization phenomena (apports and deports).
Anomalous Phenomena is Unexplained not Impossible
Psi is Subtle not Absolute
Anything is possible, it'a all a matter of Probability
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