Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Anybody interested in discussing a Scythian settlement in isles?
Left an image from Perthshire on the right a scythian gold from the Ukraine
Left a Stone Figure from Boa island northern ireland, on the right a Scythian Kurgan Stele from Kyrgyzstan.
Anybody interested in discussing a Scythian settlement in isles?
Left an image from Perthshire on the right a scythian gold from the Ukraine
Left a Stone Figure from Boa island northern ireland, on the right a Scythian Kurgan Stele from Kyrgyzstan.
Similarities between The Goddess Brigid and Scythia’s Goddess Tabiti.
Red Hair Blue eyes. Both ancient societies were known for thier chariot skills.
Pictish Beast
Scythian Ibex
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Well that came out messed up.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
It is notthe most function friendly forum so don’t worry if pictures do not show up exactly as you want. You always e-mail them in to info@mysteriousbritain.co.uk and I’ll try to sort them out for you.
Rather than a settlement, couldn’t the similarities in goods be the result of trade links?
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
I think if the Scythian region were closer maybe trade could be a possibility. But how many Items could have reached Ireland and Britain, from the area of the black sea.
The the Scythians like the Picts were tatooed.
It just seems to me that there is something to the book of invasions story.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Perhaps the connection might be Rome? Sarmatian auxillaria were stationed all over Britannia
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Thats a good suggestion Baronlveagh, it may even be possible to identify the general areas where these units may have served.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
From Roman-Britain.org:
"Ala Primae Sarmatarum
The First Wing of Sarmatians
Cassius Dio (Historiarum Romanorum quae Supersunt LXXI.xvi.2) records that 5,500 Sarmatian cavalry were posted to Britain under the terms of the treaty of ad 175. These men would very likely have been split into eleven Cavalry Alae of quingenary strength (i.e. 500 troopers per unit), or may have been used to provide a cavalry contingent for around twenty-odd under-strength infantry units, thus forming cohortes equitatae, or indeed, any combination. It is very unlikely that any were formed into a large cavalry ala milliaria, as these are very rare, there being generally only a single example in any one province, and the only one recorded in Britain was housed in the Stanwix fort on Hadrian’s Wall, the Ala Petriana. These cavalry troopers must have been housed in forts scattered throughout northern Britain and Wales; some of which were apparently formed into the Ala Sarmatarum and stationed at the Ribchester fort. The unit is attested only on two undated inscriptions.
As the ala became depleted – through retirement mostly – its numbers were not replenished it seems, and its status changed to that of a numerus ‘company’ by 222-35, and thence to a lowly cuneus ‘wedge’ by the end of the fourth century. The tile stamped BSAR found at Catterick, may have connections with this unit in one of its several incarnations. During its entire lifetime the unit was stationed at Ribchester in Britain, and uniquely allowed to change its military classification."
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
I know the area of Stanwix very well, it is in Carlisle where I now live and I went to college on that there. The museum in Carlisle, Tullie House has some great Roman exhibits.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
The name Danu can mean:
The Tuatha Dé Danann ("peoples of the goddess Danu",) Or could it be the River peoples?
Both of you images of "Godesses" Are aquatic in nature and are said to have snakes about them… What if they were eels? Would make sense would it not? and their domain the rivers and their river land could be called Eelland..
And of course we all know there are no Snakes in Ireland don’t we…
Beautiful artwork from Danu… made by the hands of the Tuatha Dé Danann The People of the River.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Scythian 5th–4th c.BC. Salbyk kurgan surrounded by balbals with kurgan obelisk on the top. Upper Enisey-Irtysh interfluvial
This is of course Newgrange
Above is the Irtysh Mound below the Irish … Ir-ty-sh / Ir-i-sh
Tara River (Russian: Тара) is a river in the Novosibirsk and Omsk Oblasts in Russia. It is a right tributary of the Irtysh River of the Ob basin.
Lovely shade of green the have for their flag would you not agree?
Tara (Russian: Та́ра) is a town in Omsk Oblast, Russia, located about 300 kilometers (190 mi) north of Omsk, at the confluence of the Tara and Irtysh Rivers. Or more properly Tara Danu and Irtysh Danu.
And of course Kyrgyzstan is just due south of Omsk Oblast…
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
As fr as the Irish-Scythean connection goes: remember that during the bronze age, the gaels were located in what is now central europe. They were progresivly driven westward until the Romans drove them off the Iberian penensula and they fled to what is now southern Ireland, displacing an earlier people.
Remember that Danae was also the mother of Perseus. There are any number of cultures that the Gaels could have gathered up this word from, though my theory is Demeter, as both Danu and Demeter have a connection to the land itself.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
I’m afraid I must agree with you Baron. You are quite correct with both your statements. I was more drawn to Tautha De Danann / Danu just by the mere close connection verbally.
I’ve also wondered if there are no Scythian Presence in the Isles why would the Flag of Essex contain 3 Scimitars. I do not know why they show up on an Essex flag thats for sure.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
No idea, as the Scytheans did not have scimitars. The Scimitar as we now know it appeared around the 12th century and did not reach England until thje 16th.
Essex coat of arms is supposed to depict three Saxon sæx. This was, supposedly, it’s the coat of arms of Æscwine who founded the Kingdom of Essex. Why it looks that way now may be due to artistic license during the 19th Century.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optim
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
*double post due to server error*
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Yes again I have to agree with you Baron They are "called "Sea Axes" Or Daggars but these certainly don’t look like daggars of any discription. And the Flag and coat of arms date from the 4th century. Which is my question how in the world did they show up in Essex in the 4th century… Odd indeed..
The word scimitar can mean Scythian Arm and and many a man way laid to rest in a cemetery or scemetery by a scimitar I would guess.
Skunkha, king of the Sakā tigraxaudā ("wearing pointed caps Sakae", a group of Scythian tribes). Detail of Behistun Inscription.
Perhaps this is where the gnome came from?
But I tend to see the Scythian or Scothian as more of a archer and chairiot based people hence the term dart or Scoti.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
"The English term scimitar is attested from the mid-16th century, derives from either the Middle French cimeterre (15c.) or from the Italian scimitarra. The ultimate source of these terms is unknown. Perhaps they are corruptions of the Persian shamshir," – Wikipedia.
"Shamshir" litterally just means a sword in general.
A Seax with replica
What happened was that an anacronsm emerged. The Essex coat of arms was assigned in 1932, though an engraving of it exists in Speed’s 1611 Saxon Heptarchy but the engraving, as is common of such things of that period, does not match the description, three seaxes argent, in a field gules. (and shows Æscwine in clothes that are far too new). Speed himself implies that the coat of arms is a fabrication of contemporary heralds, as coats of arms only became common following the Norman invasion.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Yes the first depiction of the 3 Scimitar was indeed in 1611.
Depiction of the first king of the East Saxons, Æscwine, his shield showing the three seaxes emblem attributed to him (fromJohn Speed‘s 1611 Saxon Heptarchy).
The picture was done in 1611 … but it depicts a 5th century king bearing the 3 Scimitars. Which tells me that the painter had good reason to believe the 3 Scimitars were the arms of the first king of Essex in 1611. I would not conclude that the arms were in first use in 1611.
At the end of the day a 3 foot scimitar is not a 12 inch daggar and british swords were straight in nature not curved to the best of my knowledge.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=MacNova] Yes the first depiction of the 3 Scimitar was indeed in 1611.
Depiction of the first king of the East Saxons, Æscwine, his shield showing the three seaxes emblem attributed to him (fromJohn Speed‘s 1611 Saxon Heptarchy).
The picture was done in 1611 … but it depicts a 5th century king bearing the 3 Scimitars. Which tells me that the painter had good reason to believe the 3 Scimitars were the arms of the first king of Essex in 1611. I would not conclude that the arms were in first use in 1611.
At the end of the day a 3 foot scimitar is not a 12 inch daggar and british swords were straight in nature not curved to the best of my knowledge.
[/quote]
The engraving was done by Joost de Hondt (aka Jodocus Hondius) who lived in Amsterdam. I might suggest he barely knew what England looked like, let alone a 5th Century Monarch or a saxon sword. (If you want a good laugh, what he thought contemporary people like the Chinese looked like)
Speed’s description comes from Richard Verstegan’s A Restitution of Decayed Intelligence in Antiquities concerning the most noble and renowned English Nation which was written in Antwerp by a man who also penned what we now call ‘propoganda’ and was in Exile from England for such things as ‘Atrocities of the Protestants’. Prevous to this, no record exists of any such device for the Kings of Essex. Previous authors on the subject such as Rodger of Wendover make no mention of it. Speed himself clearly thought it was untrue, but also had no source to refute it, as less is known about Æscwine than is known about most Old Kingdom Egyptian Pharaohs. He only becomes important when Rodger of Wendover and Matthew Paris both claimed he founded Essex.
The works of William of Malmesbury, John of Worcester, and, most telling, Henry of Huntingdon’s Historia Anglorum, first published in 1129, all point to it being untrue. Malmesbury and Worchester dismiss him out of hand entirely, and Huntington only lists him as King Sledd’s father. All three attribute Essex founding to Sledd, and Henry in particular was writing much closer to Sledd’s own time period, which was only 100 years after Rome abandoned Brittania.
People thought Plutach was a great historian for years, as his work fit thier preconceptions. But frankly, he fabricated a lot. I suspect this is a similar case where, due to lack fo any real information, someone made something up that sounded good, and everyone copied it. Throw in a Dutch engraver that had no idea what a Seax looked like and you have your scimitars
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Ok…
Got a riddle for you
If an Englishman comes from England and an Irish man comes from Ireland and a Spaniard comes from Spain and a Scythian comes from Scythia where does a Milesian come from?
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=MacNova] Ok…
Got a riddle for you
If an Englishman comes from England and an Irish man comes from Ireland and a Spaniard comes from Spain and a Scythian comes from Scythia where does a Milesian come from?[/quote]
Spain. Milesians are the supposed descendants of Míl Espáine who’s name is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania".They reperesented the last stage of the Gaelic invasion of Ireland during Roman expansion into Iberia.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=BaronIveagh][quote=MacNova] Ok…
Got a riddle for you
If an Englishman comes from England and an Irish man comes from Ireland and a Spaniard comes from Spain and a Scythian comes from Scythia where does a Milesian come from?[/quote]
Spain. Milesians are the supposed descendants of Míl Espáine who’s name is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania".They reperesented the last stage of the Gaelic invasion of Ireland during Roman expansion into Iberia.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
[/quote]
Now my guess would have been Milesians come from Milesia.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=MacNova]
Now my guess would have been Milesians come from Milesia.
[/quote]
It’s like the Dalcassians. They’re the decendents of Cormac Cas, not that they’re from somepace called that.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
But there was a city state in Ionia called Milesia just south of the western most boarder of Scythia. A seagoing people called Milesians. And they had colonies in Southern france and in eastern Spain. Along with many Pontic colonies.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Robert Graves had a theory that the Tuatha De Danaan migrated up the Danube and into Denmark (the Amber route) and then crossed over to Britain in 1470 BC and then into Ireland. He postulated that both the river and the country were named after Dana/Danu in his epic "The White Goddess". The Danaans were also linked to the Nemedians, one of the waves of settlers recorded in the Leabar Gabhala Eirean or "Book of Invasions" and the vconnection with the Scythians and Iran could be Magi, Scythian priests who settled near Raga in Iran. The Danaans were exemplary for their magical arts. I may be wrong on this but I thought the Celts/Gaels learned the use of the chariot from the Greeks, though they learned about horse-shoes and reigns from the Scythians. The Milesians or "sons of Milo or Mil" were Celt-Iberians and when they came into Ireland defeated the Danaans in the battle of Moytura. In legend the traty which followed saw the Danaans banished to the "hollow hills" of the underworld and the islands off the Atlantic coast, with the Gaels having suzerainty above ground (thus the origins of the "little people" who fear Iron). The words "Gal" or "Wal" deignate these Celtic peoples as in Galatia, Galicia, Gaeltacht etc. or Wallachia, Wallonia, Wales etc. The Milesian emigration into Ireland (and possibly Siluria — South Wales) pre-dated the Roman incursions by some time if the Book of Invasions is not mere legend (as I like to believe). They are supposed to have wandered all over Asia, North Africa and Europe before making it over to the islands. Both Celts and Scythians originated in central Asia and were two of the "barbarian" peoples recorded by the Romans, the others being the Libyans and Persians. There must have been much interaction between them during their folk wanderings, and Jean Markale the Breton Scholar has very interesting theories about this in his excellent researches on the Celts.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Well I can find no fault in anything you have expressed Martin. Myself I am no scholar on ancient Irish history. But while doing a geneaeology for my wife. Then it struck me, there is something wrong with this lineage. Not the History but the Chronology.
You see there is not enough people to account for the time taken to go from St. David of Scotland to Adam even when you exclude adam to say magog the generations gap is 46 + years.
So I used the 20 year standard generation to compile a list. This just gives a birth date for the next generation at 20 year intervals. it is not dependant on the age of the person just allocates 20 years between generations. So 5 generations per century and so on.
On from St. David I went to Mil Espaine. When I got to Mil I wondered why is this the only fellow without a name and just a title? At any rate I finished off with a date of 343 BC for Mil Espaine. I checked the dates with the 4 masters… and I was off by in some cases 1000’s of years.
So I concluded I was miserably wrong scrapped the whole spread sheet and started again came up with a date of 343 BC again. One of the 4 masters had to be right I could not be right and the 4 masters wrong. But try as I may I could not get close to their dates. I started to read all I could on Mil Espaine.
From the Book of Invasions Vol II
…Three other months had they on the sea, till they reached Egypt: that was at the end of 1,354 years after the first Taking of Ireland by Partholon. Pharoah Nectanebus was king of Egypt at that time. He is the thirty-fifth king after the Pharaoh who was drowned in the Red Sea. Now it was in that time that Alexander the Great, son of Philip, came into Asia and arrived in Egypt, and brought Egypt into obedience to himself, laid Egypt waste, and drove out her king Nectanebus from Egypt into Eithiopia; and a captial city, called Alexandria, was founded by him in Egypt.
Again from Vol II
…Now Pharoah had a daughter named Scota, and Mil asked for that maiden, and Pharoah gave her to him: and that Scota bore two sons to him, Amorgen Glungel and Eber their names. It is then that Alexander, king of the world, drove out that Pharaoh, for he was not submissive to him, and expelled him southward into southern Eithiopia…
Alexander the great 343 BC
Mil Espaine 343 BC
Nectanebo II (ruled 360 – 343 BC)
also known by the name Nakhthoreb, was the third and last king of the Thirtieth dynasty of Egypt and also the last native Egyptian ruler of the country in antiquity.
By these exploits Milesius found great favour with Pharaoh, who gave him, being then a widower, his daughter Scota in marriage; and kept him eight years afterwards in Egypt.
On the inside of the Pharoah’s unused tomb is this inscription
child birth: ♂ Wehrir [?]
child birth: ♂ Colpa [?]
child birth: ♂ Amyrtaeus (Amenirdisu) [?]
marriage: ♂ # Galamh ? (Milidh) [?]
< -343? title: Princess of Egypt
I call her Amy The Scota. Wife of Mil Espaine.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=MacNova]
You see there is not enough people to account for the time taken to go from St. David of Scotland to Adam even when you exclude adam to say magog the generations gap is 46 + years.[/quote]
That’s because Lebor Gabála Érenn is largly fiction. ‘Anonymous’ took existing Celtic myth and epic poetry, Augustine’s De Civitate Dei, portions of several histories and the Bible and made a ‘Greatest HIts Remix’. It proved so popular that several dozen versions were known by the end of hte 13th century, having upwards of 130 different poems in one version or another, of which five versions have made it down to us.
(I mean, really, ‘The Solider of Hispania’ has two sons who’s names mean ‘Ireland’ and ‘Irishman” in middle irish gaelic. )
In reality, as O’Rahilly points out, the dates in Lebor Gabála Érenn work out that ‘Éremón”s real name was Túathal Techtmar and he was an invader from Spain. HIs supposed brother, who was really ‘Mug Nuadat’ (Slave of Nuada) but who’s given name was most likely Éogan, was the last arriving invader (until the English) and set himself up as ‘King of Munster’ and challenged Túathal’s grandson Conn of the Hundred Battles for the rule of all of Ireland, splitting the island in half, only ot unite it again by an arrainged marrage between thier children.
Mug’s son, Ailill Ollamh, then divided his kingdom between his four sons, creating the four classical kingdoms of Ireland.
And don’t get me going on Robert Graves. The White Goddess was good poetry, but an abomination of history and folklore. By Graves own admission, he was not writing about history or fact, or even reality, but his own theory about the realtionship between poetry and the thought process of the period. His work remains the greatest source of misinformation on celtic paganism in print.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Well as I said I do not know about Irish history and never read Graves. What I am looking at is the Chronology not the fact or myth about the history. All you can work with is what you have before you. What I found did not add up but when I applied simple logic it made sense and more importantly added up and was reconsiled by the history itself. ANother time line that overlapped was during the time of St. Patrick a tale tells of him speaking to the ghosts of 2 dead kings. When my chronology is applied the 2 kings actually lived in the time of the Saint.
I think what may have happened is that the monks of the day in an attempt to preserve the history and at the same time complete it. (Take it back to Adam) Used the best dating system they had at the time the bible. The dates the monks knew of were related to the biblical dates so they knew all men related to Adam so the made the chronology fit the history to complete the line of Kings.
But I don’t think they fabricated the history I think its a matter of the Irish history had no system of dating and they naturally overlaid it on the biblical dates they believed to be well and true.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Well, this is a pretty kettle of fish! As a new member I am most impressed with the standard of debate on this particular forum, and especially MacNova’s insights. I am presently working on a personal chronicle of Britain (from a perspective of both folklore & legend and "history" with an overlap between the two). I would be most grateful if MacNova would give permission to quote the material about Nectanebus/Scota and the tomb inscription as an amendment to Graves’s theories (which I do refer to) for purposes of balance?? It happens that although I know that his "analeptic" thought process tends towards fantasy as opposed to "straight" history, and that the book was completed whilst in the grip of a sort of emotional frenzy, I do still give it a credence others might consider unwise. I came to be interested in these matters in a similar way myself, and I am sure there has to be room for speculative and contentious theorizing as well as conventional research. With these reservations I still believe that there are shadowy truths about the immigrations into the islands contained within the "Book of invasions", and although they contain interpolations, redactions, falsehoods and misunderstandings, perhaps at its core there is a concealed truth. The Greek Pytheas was alleged to have visited "Ierne" and "Albionon" in the 3rd century before christ and if the chronology MacNova suggests is correct, then this would accord with other sea-going explorers who arrived at this time. Is there room to speculate that instead of a sea-going diaspora of peoples from the mediterranean as a response to the Indo-European invasions as Graves postulates, that the mainspring for this was actually the Macedonian invasion of Egypt many centuries later? From what I recall the Gaels had served as mercenary troops (I think as cavalry) with the Egyptians, and so it would make sense for them to seek refuge elsewhere once Alexander’s conquest was a fait accomplit. My interest in this arises as a result of local research which shows that many hill-forts in my area, previously ascribed to the iron-age, have now been re-designated as actually much older, in fact bronze-age. Of course the Gaels/Celts when they arrived here would have formed a dominant aristocracy rather than a tyrannical or genocidal power, and probably overlaid and interbred with their more ancient predecessors. But this begs the question for me, who were these earlier people? When did they arrive here? Were they "Celts" or from more far flung and exotic places of origin? The stone monuments etc seem consistent with people with knowledge of geodesy and mathematical calculation on par with the Greeks or even Egyptians. Tacitus says that he thought the Silurians of South Wales seemed akin to the Spaniards, whereas the Caledonians seemed more like the Germans. As to Ireland, I am no expert, but I notice in the far west a distinct "type" of person sometimes who seem definitely "other", not Teutonic, not "Celtic" but different, more asiatic (George Borrow noticed similar people in Wales). These are not "expert" or in any way scientific hypotheses I know, but for me this is why Britain (and Ireland) are so mysterious! Whoever they were, wherever they came from, they had to sail here, and in those days that was an epic adventure!
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=MacNova] ANother time line that overlapped was during the time of St. Patrick a tale tells of him speaking to the ghosts of 2 dead kings. When my chronology is applied the 2 kings actually lived in the time of the Saint. [/quote]
Becasue it’s an alteration of the story in Agallamh na Seanórach in which the fianna warriors Oisín and Caílte mac Rónáin relate the stories of the fianna to Saint Patrick.
It’s not necessarily that you were wrong at all in your chronology, it’s that the whole document is riddled with anachronisms and has an agenda. Remember Ireland in this period was a nation divided and besieged. Everyone was looking for a justification for their faction’s rule.
[quote=MacNova]
But I don’t think they fabricated the history I think its a matter of the Irish history had no system of dating and they naturally overlaid it on the biblical dates they believed to be well and true. [/quote]
It’s not just that they changed dates, it’s that thy altered events and then altered any copies of older documents they produced to reflect the new narrative. We call it these days ‘historical revisionism’. Some of the people involved in his story died, according to the Annals, long before his birth or were born years after his death.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Again Baron I do not know if stories were altered and with dates I’m not sure if there were any to alter did the ancient Irish have a dating system?
I just rectified the dates and found historical figures mentioned in the correct time periods. I mean really how could Mil Espaine live in 2700 BC and be in the time of Alexander? But at 343 BC its bang on and intersects with Nectanibus II Who had a daughter Amy who was given to a fellow that was known as Galamh. And this is just the tip of a large iceberg that emerges as you look into the people in the adjusted dates. Just imagine trying to find proof Julius Caesar lived if you were looking in 3000 BC for him… He would be a myth there would be no proof of him despite copius writings about him.
And Martin you can quote anything I peck here actually I’m delighted anyone actually read it 🙂
Now where was I? …. ahh yes
So this opened 2 more questions… If Mil was famous enough in the time of Alexander why is he just in Irish Annals? … Enter Baron 🙂
You see I never believe anything I like to have a look for myself then decide. And if He was powerful enough to marry and Egyptian princess there must be record of him … and if the princess was egyptian why is she called Scota? I call her Amy the Scota for good reason…I think she is a Scythian or Scothian.
It is not uncommon for a King to give his daughter to an enemy King to forge an alliance by blood. If the King did not marry the princess was wed to the Prince. In Egypt as a show of respect any new princess offered to the Pharoah was taken and "adopted" into the family so if on ocassion the prince married an adpoted foriegn bride the marrage could show as brother marrieng sister which was true legally so to speak but there was no blood relation.
Amy was just such a diplomatic gift… From a Scythian King to the Pharoah and as his kingdom was crumbling he in turn gave his "Daughter" to Mil Espaine for his help in Karnack over an 8 year period.
And once you have the dates correct the rest falls into place. Mil Espaine was indeed a Milesian not from Milesia but a milesian colony. And Amy the Scotia was a Scythian Princess, given to a Pharoah who was Given to a Milesian Mersanary Who served Alexander the Great. I’ll see if I can dig out what I have found I have logged some 700 pages of information on the subject. Its a hobby of mine.
And Baron I’m not claiming a word of it is true, it is just what I found. Could be more wrong than right, I Don’t know.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Just to throw more in the pot… a tale from "The Yellow Book of Lecan" called "Do Suidigud Tellaich Temra" the "Sharing of the land of Tara" says:
"…we (the Gaels) were born of the children of Mile of Spain. After the building of the tower of Nimrod… we went unto Egypt…Nel son of Fenius and Goidel Glas were our chieftains…that is why we are called Fene, from Fenius and Gaels from Goidel Glas… in Egypt, Scota, daughter of Pharaoh was given as wife to Ne, son of Fenius. That is why she is our ancestor and why we are called Scots from her. The night when the children of Israel escaped from Egypt…and pharaoh’s army was drowned, our ancestors did not pursue God’s people and so feared the anger of the king. Fearing he would enslave them as he had the Israelites they fled across the Red Sea into the North West (of the world). They passed the Caucasus mountains, Scythia, India, over the Caspian sea, then into Europe, crossed the Palus Maeotis, Africa, then passed the columns of Hercules to Spain and into Ireland".
Since they wrote nothing down, and these tales are based on the mnemonic prosody of bards and druids, it is little wonder that they have been garbled over millenia, so dating must be an interpolation of the later monks, and the biblical embellishments are probably intruded by them at a later date. At any rate it seems a pity that there is not a British equivalent text (with the possible exceptions of the "Bruts" of Wace and Geoffrey ab Arthur, Layamon etc.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
To really twist your noodle, Milesia (as in the one in Anatolia) was a Hellenic colony itself. They were Greeks. Miletus being directly across the Aegean Sea from Athens. It was famous for it’s doctors, scientists, and architects. Most notably during the 5th century BC, Thales of Miletus formulated what many consider the origins of Greek Philosophy.
Egypt was part of the Persian Empire at the time of Alexander. Artaxerxes had defeated Nectanebo II (Nakhthorheb) during the reign of Philip, Alexander’s father. Nectanebo II had driven the Persians out of Egypt early in his carreer, before being soundly defeated at the second Battle of Pelusium and fled south into Ethiopia and was more or less never heard from again.
The reason that Miles needs Nectanebo II’s daughter is that in certain (unlikely) versions of the story, Nectanebo II is secretly Alexander the Great’s father, not Philip. As Miles is supposedly a great warrior and conqueror, they wanted that tie to Alexander to give his ‘sons’ a pedegree of conquest.
Egypt remained a Persian vassal until Alexander’s invasion.
At this time, the Sarmatians were still East of the Sea of Azov and considered to be the worst sort of barbarians by the majority of Hellenic cultures.
Scota is the latin singular for Scoti, the term the Roman’s used for pretyty much any gaelic speaking raider, in much the same way ‘viking’ became a catch all for later sea raiders.
(So, yes, the ‘Soldier of HIspania’ marries ‘Irish Raider’ to give birth to "irishman’ and ‘Ireland’.)
As far as the Irish calender, they had thier own calender for events within the year, but for longer periods of time, they tended to use the Julian calender most of Europe had absorbed from the Romans.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
You are indeed correct there are not one but two Scota’s in Irish History. The one you nare referring to I have found nothing to support . Not to mention the route they took is rather a round about route 🙂
Hereis what I collected on the life of Mil prior to arriving in Spain… I will make a convincing case for Aquataine shortly.
Children Heremon (Éremón)
…Now Pharoah had a daughter named Scota, and Mil asked for that maiden, and Pharoah gave her to him: and that Scota bore two sons to him, Amorgen Glungel and Eber their names. It is then that Alexander, king of the world, drove out that Pharaoh, for he was not submissive to him, and expelled him southward into southern Eithiopia…
This is the starting point of my dating when I made the connection between Alexander the Great and Mil and tied him in with Nectanebo II in 343 BC and it all worked. This was the first date I triangulated but it was just the first of many. This date when using my 20 year generation dating system was only out two years over a 2500 years period.
Galamh was variously known as Milesius, Milethea Spaine, Milo Spaine, Mileadh or simply Mil. He had wanderlust, and desired to travel back to the lands of his ancestors. He left his family (he had, it was said, something like twenty-four sons by this time) and set off for Scythia, where he was warmly welcomed by his distant cousins. He was even given the hand of Seang, the daughter of the king of Scythia, in marriage. But despite the initial reception, he came to be at odds with the reigning king of Scythia. The king had made him an army commander, but grew jealous of Milesius as ‘the man of Spain’s fame increased. The king plotted to have Milesius put to death, but Milesius became aware of the plot, and slew the king before he could act. According to the legend, Seang bore him two sons, but had died prior to this incident, and so Milesius set off alone, journeying toward Egypt to the south, where, legend told him, his ancestor, Niul had found favor with the Pharoah. At Egypt, Milesius likewise found favor with the then-reinging Pharoah Nectonibus. He joined the Pharoah in his war with Ethiopia, and for his valor, was given lands and the hand of Scota, the daughter of Pharoah, in marriage. The wife and eight sons that she bore to him, Milesius gladly accepted, but he was not long interested in the lands offered him by Pharoah Nectonibus. And so, he and Scota and their sons left Egypt after eight years there, and journeyed westward across the length of the Mediterranean Sea with the intention of settling on the island that his uncle Ithe had once espied. Enroute, Milesius received word that his family at Galacia were in trouble with enemies attacking them. He subdued the attackers, but he either had not the strength or the motivation to continue on to Eire. Milesius was destined to die in Galacia.
It was the sons of Milesius and his two wives, Seang and Scota, who would undertake, and successfully complete a conquest of Eire. They were Heber (variously, Eibhear), Ir, Dond (variously, Donn), Amergin (variously, Amhairghin Glungheal), Airech (variously, Aireach), Colpha, Heremon (variously, Eireamhoin) and Arannan (variously, Erannan).
The Sun House near the historic Galle (Gael) Fort in Sri Lanka.
(Mil leaves) A great wind came upon them, which carried them eastward in the ocean, past India, past Cirord, past Golgardoma, past the estuary of the Ganges, to the island of Taprobane, and they landed therein.
I guess it was a popular destination even back in 343 BC. If you read below I think perhaps that Mil was none other than Parmenion who had a hand in murdering Philip of Macedonia who the Miletians were havin some problems with at the time in Miletus. It was said he was executed but I think perhaps he was exiled to Taprobane or perhaps escaped to there to keep a low profile. But this is just an uneducated guess on my part.
Taprobane Island Sun House was originally built in the 1920’s by the romantically named but self-styled Count de Mauny-Talvande. The island with its neo Palladian mansion has played host to kings, queens, presidents, prime ministers, aristocracy, writers and eccentrics, giving it a very colorful history, which guests can now share.
The Island comprises 2 ½ acres of sheer tropical fantasy with nothing between it and the South Pole. Accommodation is provided for in 5 en-suite bedrooms, with spacious living areas, balconies, verandahs, tropical gardens and a stunning infinity pool. A staff of 5 caters for your every need; in fact after arrival, guests frequently never leave the Island until their departure.
Sri Lanka’s only privately owned island. The No.1 address in the Indian Ocean.
Sri Lanka is the fabled Ophir.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Continued…
Sri Lanka is the fabled Ophir.
Carthage also traded with India by traveling through the Red Sea and the perhaps-mythical lands of Ophir which is Sri Lanka and Punt, which is Garamantes.
Ophir in Genesis 10 (the Table of Nations) is said to be the name of one of the sons of Joktan. Biblical references to the land of Ophir are also found in 1 Kings 9:28; 10:11; 22:48; 1 Chronicles 29:4; 2 Chronicles 8:18; Book of Job 22:24; 28:16; Psalms 45:9; Isaiah 13:12.
—John Masefield, “Cargoes”
Quinquireme of Nineveh from distant Ophir,
Rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine,(Havenor, Heaven is Home not a place where gods live)
With a cargo of ivory,
And apes and peacocks,
Sandalwood, cedarwood, and sweet white wine.
Information
Details about the three of Joktan‘s sons, Sheba, Ophir and Havilah, were preserved in a tradition known in divergent forms from three pre-Islamic Arabic and Ethiopic sources: the Kitab al-Magall (part of Clementine literature), the Cave of Treasures, and the Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan.
The Kitab al-Magall states that in the days of Reu, a king of Saba (Sheba) named “Pharoah” annexed Ophir and Havilah to his kingdom, and “built Ophir with stones of gold, for the stones of its mountains are pure gold.”
In the Cave of Treasures, this appears as: “And the children of Ophir, that is, Send, appointed to be their king Lophoron, who built Ophir with stones of gold; now, all the stones that are in Ophir are of gold.”
The version in the Conflict of Adam and Eve says: “Phar’an reigned over the children of Saphir [Ophir], and built the city of Saphir with stones of gold; and that is the land of Sarania, and because of these stones of gold, they say that the mountains of that country and the stones thereof are all of gold.”
(Conflict of Adam and Eve seems to be a well-developed economy for a planet with just two people on it?)
This is Fort Galle (Gael) not far from Taprobane Island. Gimhathiththa (Gimli time to time eats here) as it was once known, was built by the Portugese of all peoples… Portugal comes from Port of the Gaels.
Mílid Espáine, Míl Espáne, Míl Easpáine, Míle Easpáin, Míled, Mílead, Míleadh, Miles, Mille Easpain
[Irish, soldier of Spain; cf. Latin miles Hispaniae]
Eponymous founder of the Milesians, final mythic invaders of Ireland in the Lebor Gabála [Book of Invasions], and
fictional(I beg to differ) ancestor of the Irish people. Born with the name Golam or Galam, Míl bore a distinguished pedigree, tracing his line through Bile, grandfather Breogan, twenty more Irish names,and thirteen Hebrew names back to Adam.(Here is the fictional part of his history) Although his usual name, Míl Espáine (clearly a title), links him with Spain, descriptions of his early career place him in Scythia, a region the subject of much fanciful speculation in early Irish literature. His service initially so pleases the king of Scythia that Míl is made army commander and marries the king’s daughter Seang, who bears him two sons, Donn and Erech Febria, before dying an early death. Discovering a plot against him, Míl murders Seang’s father and flees from Scythia in sixty ships to Egypt. There he serves Pharaoh Nectanebus as army commander in a successful war against the Ethiopians; on this point the authors of the Lebor Gabála had studied their sources, as there are indeed two pharaohs of the Thirtieth Dynasty named Nectanebus, 380–363 BC and 360–343 BC. Míl marries the Pharaoh‘s daughter Scota [Latin, Irish-woman], who bears him two sons while in Egypt, Éber Finn and Amairgin ; a third son, Ír, is born near Thrace, and a fourth, Colptha, is born on an island in the Mediterranean. Remembering the druid Caicer’s prophecy that he and his people would settle in Ireland, Míl departs from Egypt and sails west. But hearing that Spain is menaced by villains, he stops in his homeland and triumphs in many battles. Sometime later Míl dies of unspecified causes, never reaching Ireland himself. His kin who do reach Ireland include his uncle Íth, his wife Scota [Irish woman], and many of his sons. The number of sons attributed to him ranges as high as thirty-two, counting his by-blows from adventures in Spain and Scythia, but the most conventional number is eight, a distinction he shares with the Welsh Cunedda. Disregarding their mothers, his most important sons are Éber and Éremón, who later divide Ireland between themselves, and then Ír, Donn, Colptha, Amairgin, Erech Febria, and Erannán.Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
All of what you have stated is historically correct. I am not disputing the histroy I am just looking into one mans family tree 🙂
Here the Book of Invasions agrees with your history… So its not all bad…
…Three other months had they on the sea, till they reached Egypt: that was at the end of 1,354 years after the first Taking of Ireland by Partholon. Pharoah Nectanebus was king of Egypt at that time. He is the thirty-fifth king after the Pharaoh who was drowned in the Red Sea. Now it was in that time that Alexander the Great, son of Philip, came into Asia and arrived in Egypt, and brought Egypt into obedience to himself, laid Egypt waste, and drove out her king Nectanebus from Egypt into Eithiopia; and a captial city, called Alexandria, was founded by him in Egypt.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
This is who I think Mil Espaine or Golam is…… I give you 🙂
Nearchus (Golam)
Nearchus Discovers a Sea Route from India to the Arabian Peninsula
Overview
In 325 B.C. the Greek military commander Nearchus undertook a naval expedition from the mouth of the Indus River in what is now Pakistan to that of the Euphrates River in Mesopotamia, or modern Iraq. His voyage served a number of purposes, not least of which was to ferry a large portion of Alexander the Great’s fighting force from India back to Greece; but his principal mission was to find a sea route between the Indian sub-continent and the Near East. This he did, in the process making possible much greater trade and exchange between India and lands to the west.
Background
The career of Nearchus (360-312 B.C.), who came from Crete, is inexorably tied with that of his friend and leader, Alexander the Great (356-323 B.C.) Alexander’s father, Philip II of Macedon (r. 359-336 B.C.), conquered the Greek city-states with the aim of uniting all of Greece and going on to subdue the dying empire of the Persians. But he was assassinated before he could undertake his mission, so it fell to his son to become the greatest military leader the world has ever known.
Nearchus (Greek: Νέαρχος, Nearchos; c. 360 – 300 BC) was one of the officers, a navarch, in the army of Alexander the Great. His celebrated voyage from India to Susa after Alexander‘s expedition in India is preserved in Arrian‘s account, the Indica.
A native of Lato[1] in Crete, his family settled at Amphipolis in Macedonia at some point during Philip II’s reign (we must assume after Philip took the city in 357 BC), at which point Nearchus was probably a young boy. He was almost certainly older than Alexander, as were Ptolemy, Erigyius, and the others of the ‘boyhood friends’[2] ; so depending on when Androtimus came to Macedonia Nearchus was quite possibly born on Crete.
Nearchus, along with Ptolemy, Erigyius and Laomedon, and Harpalus, was one of Alexander’s ‘mentors’ – and he was exiled by Philip as a result of the Pixodarus affair (A 3.6.5; P 10.4). It is not known where the exiles went, but they were recalled only after Philip’s death, on Alexander’s accession.
After their recall, these men were held in the highest honour. Nearchus was appointed as satrap of Lycia and Pamphylia in 334/3 BC (A 3.3.6), one of the earliest of Alexander’s satrapal appointments. In 328 BC he was relieved of his post and rejoined Alexander in Bactria, bringing with him reinforcements (A 4.7.2; C 7.10.4, but does not mention Nearchus himself). After the siege of Aornus Nearchus was sent at the head of a reconnaissance mission – especially to find out about elephants (A 4.30.5-6).
Map showing voyages of Nearchus and the campaigns of Alexander until shortly after acquiring the Persian Empire – from A History of the Ancient World, George Willis Botsford Ph.D., The MacMillan Company, 1913
In 326 BC, Nearchus was made admiral of the fleet that Alexander had built at the Hydaspes (A 6.2.3; Indica 18.10). However, his trierarchy was a financial responsibility – that is, Nearchus put up the money for the boats (Heckel, p.229); and there were plenty of other trierarchs in the Indus fleet who were not natural born sailors.
During the voyage some of the ships were damaged, and Nearchus was instructed to remain behind to oversee repairs, before continuing down the river. This perhaps indicates some knowledge of shipbuilding, but he could hardly have been the only one qualified.
However, he remained in command of the fleet for the voyage from the Indus to the Persian Gulf, which he recorded in detail (and which was used extensively for Arrian’s Indica). Again, although he was the admiral, in command of the fleet, great seamanship was not required – the naval responsibilities were Onesicritus’. During the voyage, Nearchus was reputedly the first Greek commander to visit Bahrain, which was called Tylos by the Greeks. His visit marked the start of Bahrain’s inclusion within the Hellenic world, which culminated in the worship of Zeus (as the Arab sun god, Shams) and Greek being spoken as the language of the upper classes.
After many adventures, Nearchus arrived in Carmania, meeting up with Alexander after the latter’s crossing of the Gedrosian desert. Alexander sent him off to complete his voyage – he went as far as the Euphrates before turning back to rejoin Alexander at Susa, in early 324 BC.
Nearchus married the daughter of Barsine and Mentor (A 7.4.6), and received a crown as recognition of his exertions (A 7.5.6). He then took the fleet up to Babylon, where he gave Alexander the Chaldeans’ warning not to enter the city (P 73.1-2). Nearchus had a place in Alexander’s final plans, as he was to be the admiral of the Arabian invasion fleet; but the plans were cut short by the king’s death.
In the initial arguments over the rule of the empire Nearchus supported Heracles, Alexander’s son by Barsine – the king’s mistress was now his mother-in-law. Once order broke down he joined Antigonus’ camp. His last mention is as an adviser to Demetrius in 313/2 BC (D 19.69.1); what happened after that is not known, although he probably retired to write his history… One of the Annals perhaps of Ireland? Written in Greek Translated to Latin in 1100? I don’t know 🙂
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Most famous for having been an Admiral of Alexander the Great, if Nearchus the Voyager had lived during a time when the great shadow of Alexander cast it’s light over all in the world, he would be remembered as one of the great explorers of history.
Nearchus was born on Crete sometime around 350 B.C., became a tutor of Alexander, and then later explored and charted all of the coast of Alexander’s Asia from the mouth of the Indus to the mouth of the Euphrates. The reason for the expedition was to open up communication between India and Egypt, but for Nearchus, the voyage was about traveling and obtaining knowledge of far off lands.
With 2000 men and
scores of ships, Nearchus sailed down the Indus while exploring the delta and then set forth to explore unchartered seas. Before he was through he had explored unknown parts of the Arabian Coast, the Persian Gulf and had begun charting an expedition to the Red Sea.
He was the first Greek to visit Bahrain and one of the great captains of Maritime history. We know of him from the chronicles he wrote of his voyage. The book, Indikê is now lost, but its contents are well-known from several sources, especially the Indikê by Arrian of Nicomedia and the Geography by Strabo of Amasia.
Nearchus met his end in the the battle of Ipsu (at least according to some historians) and so was not one of those who picked up the pieces of Alexander’s empire once the great man had perished – although, there are alternate histories which say that he did outlive Alexander and threw his support behind Heracles, the illegitimate son of Alexander. There is no way to determine which account is true.
Oddly, Nearchus is often confused with St. Nearchus, an Armenian Christian who became a Christian saint, despite the fact that the Greek Nearchus lived well before Christ.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Fascinating! Whilst we are in the orient, does anyone know anything about the legend of the "Cymry" (Welsh-men) originating in India/Sri Lanka (Cape Comorin) or Taprobane? I think this was one of the pet theories of "Iolo Morganwg" (Edward Williams) and was taken up by George Borrow who as a philologist was obsessed about linguistic correspondences between Romani, Welsh, Sanskrit, Iranian etc. It seems strangely redolent of the Irish legends. Could they have been the template, since much of Wales was in effect Irish in the "dark ages" (Lleyn is derived from Leinster for instance) and there must have been lively cultural traffic across the sea from time immemorial. Sorry if this is somewhat off the main point!
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Fascinating! Whilst we are in the orient, does anyone know anything about the legend of the "Cymry" (Welsh-men) originating in India/Sri Lanka (Cape Comorin) or Taprobane? I think this was one of the pet theories of "Iolo Morganwg" (Edward Williams) and was taken up by George Borrow who as a philologist was obsessed about linguistic correspondences between Romani, Welsh, Sanskrit, Iranian etc. It seems strangely redolent of the Irish legends. Could they have been the template, since much of Wales was in effect Irish in the "dark ages" (Lleyn is derived from Leinster for instance) and there must have been lively cultural traffic across the sea from time immemorial. Sorry if this is somewhat off the main point!
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Now here you see a line from Adam to Mil Espaine Now with Mil being found in proper time at 343 BC The Irish history now intersects with the history of Carthage in perfect syncronization. The Irish Histories Beginning at Generation 23 and ending at generation 32 yes looks like Ireland was Carthage. Well at least these few generations passed that way.
From (1) Adam, his son (2) Seth, his son (3) Enos, his son (4) Cainan, his son (5) Mahalaleel, his son (6) Jared, his son (7) Enoch, his son (8) Methuselah, his son (9) Lamech, his son (10) Noah, his son (11) Japhet, his son (12) Magog, his son (13)Baoth "to whom Scythia came has his lot," his son (14) Phoeniusa Farsaidh (Fenius Farsa) King of Scythia, his son (15) Gaodhal (Gathelus), his son (16) Asruth, his son (17) Sruth (who fled Egypt to Creta), his son (18) Heber Scut (returned to Scythia), his son (19) Beouman, King of Scythia, his son (20) Ogaman King of Scythia, his son (21) Tait King of Scythia, his son (22) Agnon (who fled Scythia by sea with the majority of his people), his son
(23) Lamhfionn (who led his people to Gothia or Getulia, where Carthage was afterwards built), his son (24) Heber Glunfionn King of Gothia, his son (25) Agnan Fionn King of Gothia, his son (26) Febric Glas King of Gothia, his son (27) Nenuall King of Gothia, his son (28) Nuadhad King of Gothia, his son (29) Alladh King of Gothia, his son (30) Arcadh King of Gothia, his son (31) Deag King of Gothia, his son (32) Brath King of Gothia (who left Gothia with a large band of his people and settled in Galicia, Spain), his son
(33) BreoghanKing of Galicia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile, and Portugal, his son (34) Bile King of Galicia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile, and Portugal, and his son (35) Galamh (also known as Milesius of Spain) King of Galicia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile, and Portugal.
Sorry for the messy paste came off my spread sheet. but its still easy to follow.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
The obvious delema this presents is that its only 22 generations to Adam From Agnon or 440 years placing Adam at around 700 BC. That cannot be correct. And it is not. I found more Irish ancestors of Mil along the way in fact I found 8000 years or there abouts all related father to son with dates and names..Quite a list indeed 🙂
Another thing you may or may not find interesting is What this time line does to the Tautha De Danannu.
Thru looking at different chronologies the one thing I have found in common is that if you yo far enough back in any one lineage the Line goes from History to Legend to Myth. History is recorded Ledgend is passed on but no proof can be found to authenticate it and Myth seems to be any Legend or king that predates any bible era. Which makes sense because anything before 4000 BC didn’t exist. SO if you were a monk or christian scholar you would only be recording the truthand the ancient gibberish well just could not have existed for the simple reason God created the earth around 4000 BC so anything before that was just impossible. There for had to be either lies or just made up.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Now where did Mil Espaine / Nearchus end up at After he left Karnak in Egypt he went to Galacia from there sailed into the Bay of Biscay and Landed in Carnac, France 🙂 Was killed in a battle with the Pharoah (I’m thinking maybe the Pharoah didn’t give Mil his daughter) in a place called Saumur, France. Here Mil was killed and his body was taken back to Carnac and entombed at what is now called.
Tumulus of St. Michael
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=MacNova] SO if you were a monk or christian scholar you would only be recording the truthand the ancient gibberish well just could not have existed for the simple reason God created the earth around 4000 BC so anything before that was just impossible. There for had to be either lies or just made up. [/quote]
The problem with that is that the 4000 BC thing was not the prevailing belief at the time, which was that of Saint Augustine, being that the passage of time was irrelevant to God, and thus the chronology could be of any length, as the exact date of creation was not fixed. (This helped with the conversion of Egypt, which had a written history at the time starting very, very shortly after Creation, according to the 4000BC chronology. Remember at this point the Library had not yet been burned when the conversion of Egypt was begun).
Ussher’s Annales Veteris Testamenti was not going to be published for another 400 years.
THe prolbme with calling all this legend is that written histories existed at the time for all the actual events. The Romans had extensive histories covering the wars in Iberia and Gaul, while the egyptians make no mention of these events, and were pretty good at covering royal weddings.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optim
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=BaronIveagh][quote=MacNova] SO if you were a monk or christian scholar you would only be recording the truthand the ancient gibberish well just could not have existed for the simple reason God created the earth around 4000 BC so anything before that was just impossible. There for had to be either lies or just made up. [/quote]
The problem with that is that the 4000 BC thing was not the prevailing belief at the time, which was that of Saint Augustine, being that the passage of time was irrelevant to God, and thus the chronology could be of any length, as the exact date of creation was not fixed. (This helped with the conversion of Egypt, which had a written history at the time starting very, very shortly after Creation, according to the 4000BC chronology. Remember at this point the Library had not yet been burned when the conversion of Egypt was begun).
Ussher’s Annales Veteris Testamenti was not going to be published for another 400 years.
THe prolbme with calling all this legend is that written histories existed at the time for all the actual events. The Romans had extensive histories covering the wars in Iberia and Gaul, while the egyptians make no mention of these events, and were pretty good at covering royal weddings.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optim[/quote]
The 4000 BC was an arbitrary date just used as an example but I see what your saying.
To be sure Rome and Egypt kept good records but their record was written from a Victors prospective.
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
SO how is that for an alternative history of Ireland 🙂 Of course none of it is proven but it does raise some interesting questions does it not?
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
[quote=MacNova] SO how is that for an alternative history of Ireland 🙂 Of course none of it is proven but it does raise some interesting questions does it not?[/quote]
The only real problem with it is it flies in the face of so much that is known history.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
Baron you are so right it really does., But that’s what happens when you align the dates by generation. Like I said you should see what happens to the Tautha De Dannanu. They are now meeting the Milesians in 323 BC instead of 2000 years earlier. The Furbolgs are said to be escaped greek slaves in the Irish history.
Greek :
Published in Piping Times
February 1995
Caesar’s Bagpipes
By Frank J. Timoney
In Italy today, there is a most strange and staggering tradition among players of the Italian Bagpipe (a very small group indeed) that the Celtic tribes in England worshipped the bagpipe! The legend says that Caesar, during the conquest of Britain, in an effort to keep the Roman casualties to a minimum, decided to ambush the Celtic forces and frighten the forces of their mounted troops. He did this by gathering together all of the players of the UTRICULARIS and caused them to lay in concealment, and at the pre-arranged signal, all of the pipers played at once. The Celtic horses bolted, threw their riders and the Roman Army rushed in and annihilated the force. When the Britons understood the cause of their defeat, they immediately considered the bagpipe an instrument of divine nature with magical qualities. For this reason, they were lured by its sound to the point of idolizing and worshipping it to conquer its magic. After some time, the British copied the Roman instrument. This traditional tale was published in M. Gioiellis’ "LE ZAMPOGNE DI GIULIO CASARE" in a magazine called "MONDO MOLISE".
I have been assured that all Italian pipers and pipe makers know this legend and have passed it down all through the centuries. Now before you laugh, as I did, keep in mind that the Italian players are mainly shepherds, living in rural areas, some illiterate, without any piping societies, and probably not in contact with players of other forms of bagpipes, especially the Great Highland Bagpipe. The ledge certainly predates the Gloster Altar find! So we can readily see that the bagpipe in England is certainly the oldest in the British Isles.
I had come across the same legend some years ago in the journal of the Italian Bagpipers’ Society of Rome. In the December 1970 issue of the Piping Times there was a reprint of an article called "Syrinx and Bagpipe" by Francis Collinson, which he had published earlier in "Antiquity" magazine.
In the "Antiquity" article, Collinson mentions an archaeological find in Gloucester, England, of a small altar, ca. 2nd century AD depicting a figure playing an early type of bagpipe. It’s a clear indication that the Britons really did worship the instrument.
Collinson identified the figure with the Roman god Atys which hitherto was never depicted as a piper.
There was a recent article that reminded us of Collinson’s statement in his book on the bagpipe, that there was no evidence of the instrument either in writings, carvings or archaeological remains in Britain. Obviously, Collinson proved himself wrong in his later "Antiquity" article. England became quite the centre of the piping world after the legions left in the fourth or fifth century AD. Indeed the bagpipe there flourished in Worcestershire, Nottinghamshire and Lancashire which produced noted pipers. Areas such as Cornwall, Northumberland, Lancashire and Lincolnshire produced their own types of bagpipe.
Strong evidence seems to indicate that the Irish got the instrument from invading Anglo Norman armies. It is first mentioned in Ireland some fifty years afterwards. Among the Normans, it has the same sort of development as in England. France produced at least seven varieties of bagpipe. In common use for dancing and all festive occasions, and employed at church services and religious ceremonies, it became a fashionable instrument at the courts of both countries by the eleventh century.
The bagpipe in Scotland is probably as old as that found in England. Its playing must have been noted by those who tried breach Hadrian’s Wall in all their blue finery. It must have worked its way up by the time of the Normans who also had lands in Scotland. Certainly the bellows are to be of continental origin.
When I first heard the legend, I immediately got my copies of "Notices of Pipers," which was published in many issues of the Piping Times. The "Notices" were compiled by Lieutenant John MacLennan and revised and added to by Major I.H. MacKay Scobie and Archibald Campbell of Kilberry. Scobie was a fanatic on anything Scottish. As curator of the Scottish National Naval and Military Museum, he altered many old engravings by adding in items he thought the original artists had left out!
They mentioned all kinds of ancient people who supposedly wrote of the bagpipe in olden times. Prudentius, Seneca, Virgil, Martial, Aulus Gellius and, in particular, Quintilianus Aristides who purportedly refers to the bagpipe in Scotland ca AD 100, and Procopius who supposedly refers to the pipe bands in Britain ca 6th century AD. I consulted the Loeb Classical Library and after going through some 100 volumes found that Procopius never got to the British Isles, never mentioned the bagpipe and that Quintilianus Aristides never mentioned Scotland or the bagpipe!
Knowing Kilberry’s credentials to be spotless, I was stymied as to where the "Notices" drew its misinformation from.
Then I remembered Dr. Grattan Flood of Dublin. He produced a totally worthless "History" of the bagpipe around 1911 and he fanatically endeavoured to give Ireland a historical claim to the premiership of the bagpipe, which it never had. Fortunately, Kilberry and Scobie saw through it and their "notices" on Flood reflect a warning that he was prejudiced to the Highland pipe. However, Flood listed the same ancient world characters that are in the "Notices" and it at once becomes apparent that Kilberry and Scobie copied him, never realizing that here too, Flood was fabricating. It is my guess that this part of the "Notices" was left to Scobie, as Kilberry was fully involved with the publication of his book on piobaireachd at that point in time. This is why I feel that the "Notices" are not to be relied upon prior to 1800.
Flood’s book gave an important push to the fledgling Irish pipe industry. This had only started around 1900 when Henry Starck, who had been a partner of William Ross, piper to HM Queen Vistoria, went around to all the Irish infantry regiments and convinced the younger Anglo Irish officers to adopt the bagpipe which Irish regiments never had. "Pipers" were easily obtained by draughts from the regimental flute bands, fingertips and all!
Starck even introduced the "Brien Boru War Pipe" to two regiments. The rest chose castrated Highland pipes. There was a great outcry from the older officers on the loss of the old flute bands and an even greater outcry as the kilt began to be issued in these regiments. It was stated in many regiments that it was nothing more than aping the Scot.
Thankfully, Starck’s abortion never came to much. Although invented by others, the pipers who had to play them never thought much of the sham. "The man who invented these hated pipes" was the overall sentiment by all, except of course, the young officers.
But Grattan Flood lived on. The Irish clung to his absurdities with desperate tenacity. Until this day he is quoted by all remaining Irish regiments and sadly even in Scotland. As time went on, others added to his misclaims. In 1923, "A Short History of the Bagpipes" was published in the "Faug a Ballagh," a regimental publication of the Royal Irish Fusiliers. This was submitted by the sergeants’ mess and was nothing more than a quoting of Grattan Flood, who supposedly helped with the article.
Concerning Martial, the Roman general, it was claimed, "he ‘described’ the bagpipe in his Epigrams, Book 10, as consisting of a blowpipe, bag, single drone and chanter" but all Martial said was, "Et concupiscat esse Canus ascaules?" (And Canus longs to be a bagpipe-player?) But Flood will live on because rumour has it that someone with little to do is about to reprint it. Perhaps it will also have a new preface by a World’s Greatest Piper.
To Cicero we will leave the last words; "Ubiam suas Gentis?"
Published in Piping Times
1995
In Response to Readers’ Questions Regarding "Caesar’s Bagpipes"
The book, "The Bagpipe," by Francis Collinson must be taken with a grain of salt (as well "The International Piper" magazine.) Collinson was correct in some things and not correct in other things. He had cause to retract his statement that there was "no evidence of the bagpipe either I writings, carvings or archaeological remains in Britain."
This he did in an article called "Syrinx and Bagpipe" in the magazine "Antiquity" in early 1970. In 1961, during excavations in Gloster, England, a small Roman altar was found, circa 2nd century AD which showed a figure playing what appears to be a bagpipe. It was identified as the Roman god ATYS holding in his right hand, individual pipes and in the crook of his left arm, what appears to be a bag.
EARLY GREEK AND EGYPTIAN SOURCES
There is a striking resemblance in this carving to a Hellenistic figuring, circa 300-100 BC, from Alexandria Egypt, showing a street musician with a bagpipe drone and bag under the left arm. This, Collinson said, "is basically accepted as the earliest unassailable representation of the application of the bag principle to the blowing of a musical pipe." Subsequently, the Cairo Museum announced they had no less then three (3) similar figurines all playing a bagpipe, clothed in the same manner and assigned them to the last century BC during the reigns of Ptolemy VII, Ptolemy IX, and Ptolemy X.
A Greek or Roman engraving, on a gem, of the same period, shows the bagpipe as a fully developed instrument in its own right with two chanters, a drone, a blowpipe and a bag all hanging from a tree. (This formed the cover of the December 1970 issue of The Piping Times which also reprinted the entire "Antiquity" article.)
There is also a small bronze figure of a Roman soldier playing the Tibia Utricularis discovered in the foundations of the Praetorian camp at Richborough (see figure 3).
The first to mention the bagpipe in literature was CHRYSOSTOMOS, a Greek classical writer who, in about 100 AD, refers to a mouth blown bagpipe when he writes of a man who could play the pipe with his mouth on a bag placed under the armpit. This is very similar to the Hellinistic figurines mentioned previously.
The second to mention the bagpipe was the Roman General MARTIAL, in about 93 AD, in his "EPIGRAMS #10," wherein her refers to his friend Canus who desired to be a bagpipe player. Also another Roman, by the name of Suetonius, who in the 2nd century AD reminded us that the Emperor Nero played the TIBA UTRICULARIS.
The word "sumphonia" is not Hebrew, but Greek. There is no ancient Hebrew word for bagpipe. The Old Testament references musical instruments, that are today translated as "piper," "piped," "pipes," meaning any kind of reed instrument. The Book of Daniel was in Aramaic, not Hebrew. Francis Collinson reminds us that the Hebrew word a pipe was "chalil" (the one who praises God). This was a pipe without bag and our words hail and hallelujah come from it. The Chalosan Sculptures do not show as bag pipe. They show a simple reed pipe and these are the type of reeds that are found in Egyptian mummy cases.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xbzbp8Pff8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHdez2V2Q2M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOwHhPJF1zY&playnext=1&list=PL78A6CD651D16A0AE&feature=results_main
And then to Galacia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzF35iRocJA
A detail from the Galician Cantigas de Santa Maria showing bagpipes with one chanter and a parallel drone (13th Century).
Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
bagpipes are a traditional instrument in the mountains of the Balkans, particularly in todays Macedonia and south of Serbia and Bulgaria, and probably came to Egypt with the Macedonians.