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North Doors?


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indiagold
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Re: North Doors?

I agree
Outcasts were left outside the parish boundaries.
But it still doesn't solve the problem of the Northerly direction.
And what did the other parish think?
I have looked at the above website, but I don't understand the relevance.
Yes I know our ancestors threw valuable objects into streams and rivers, They must be trying to stop something, and/or to make something happen.
I have always found it odd, that our ancestors threw away such valuable stuff. For goodness sake, they needed these things, for warfare.

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megalith6
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Re: North Doors?
indiagold wrote:

I agree
Outcasts were left outside the parish boundaries.
But it still doesn't solve the problem of the Northerly direction.
And what did the other parish think?

The actual parish boundary itself would have been used so there would have been no encroachment on the neighbouring parish. Boundaries are liminal locations.

North possibly considered unlucky because the sun never shines from there, as I said, Christianity derives an enormous amount of symbolism from sun worship

http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Dionysus_JuliiHelios/Dionysus_JuliiHelios...

Quote:

I have looked at the above website, but I don't understand the relevance.
Yes I know our ancestors threw valuable objects into streams and rivers, They must be trying to stop something, and/or to make something happen.
I have always found it odd, that our ancestors threw away such valuable stuff. For goodness sake, they needed these things, for warfare.

Water was seen as a portal to the other side, rivers, bogs, lakes, wells, and so forth. So you often deposited a gift to the gods through water.

Most of the surviving Celtic river names suggest that rivers were seen as gods, frequently goddesses.

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indiagold
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Re: North Doors?

yes gifts to the gods/goddesses
In Liverpool there is still a folk memory of the Lady of the Dingle, obviously the goddess of the Mersey. Dingly dell was a pretty place in Toxteth Park and a delightful stream ran through it into the Mersey.

However, those of you who may remember the TV programme "The Liver Birds" will recall the folk song that accompanied it- I used to sing it as a child, but many people in Liverpool don't really understand its significance or it's source. I quote:

"On the Hill there stands a Lady, who she is I do not know.
All she wants is gold and silver: All she wants is a fine young man." That last reference is a bit chilling-human sacrifice?

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megalith6
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Re: North Doors?
indiagold wrote:

yes gifts to the gods/goddesses
In Liverpool there is still a folk memory of the Lady of the Dingle, obviously the goddess of the Mersey. Dingly dell was a pretty place in Toxteth Park and a delightful stream ran through it into the Mersey.

However, those of you who may remember the TV programme "The Liver Birds" will recall the folk song that accompanied it- I used to sing it as a child, but many people in Liverpool don't really understand its significance or it's source. I quote:

"On the Hill there stands a Lady, who she is I do not know.
All she wants is gold and silver: All she wants is a fine young man." That last reference is a bit chilling-human sacrifice?

Thanks for this but oh golly-gosh it opens a whole new can of worms which means probably a separate thread?

Anything west Britain which is not actually modern Wales has my curiousity bristling since the Brythonic influence lingered here much longer than in the east, consider the place names Cumbria and Cymru for example. The name Liverpool itself seems to have an English origin

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Liverpool

First question I might ask is *which* hill please?

OldTimeRadio
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Re: North Doors?

     Regarding the burial of executed witches in consecrated soil, isn't a witch who has confessed her sins before her/his execution, and then executed, been forgiven of her/his sins both spiritually and temporarily, and thus possess the same right to burial in holy earth as any other Christian?

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megalith6
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Re: North Doors?
OldTimeRadio wrote:

     Regarding the burial of executed witches in consecrated soil, isn't a witch who has confessed her sins before her/his execution, and then executed, been forgiven of her/his sins both spiritually and temporarily, and thus possess the same right to burial in holy earth as any other Christian?

There are a some points here: were the vast amount of witches, actual witches in the first place? I rather suspect many were confused elderly people who were scape-goated by rural communities?

If the unfortunate victims were forgiven why execute them at all?

The fact that graves are sited north of a church reminds us that the whole churchyard is consecrated ground and I think the apparent connection between north doors and north churchyard burials will not hold. The north door ritual - if it ever existed, and if it did it was regional and sporadic - may be a superstition more to do with the sky than with the earth, since the north is the direction from which the sun never shines.

OldTimeRadio
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Re: North Doors?
megalith6 wrote:

If the unfortunate victims were forgiven why execute them at all?

    Forgiving sins is a religious affair. But executions are CIVIL matters.

   

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indiagold
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Re: North Doors?

now that's an interesting one as the high point overlooking the Mersey at the Dingle doesn't actually have a name,but looking at the A-Z it will be the point around High Park street.
what I could do is look at James Stonehouses Streets of Liverpool and see if there is any reference to the locality and also the history of Toxteth Park a royal hunting ground.

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megalith6
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Re: North Doors?
OldTimeRadio wrote:
megalith6 wrote:

If the unfortunate victims were forgiven why execute them at all?

    Forgiving sins is a religious affair. But executions are CIVIL matters.

   

With one hand absolution and with the other execution - thank goodness we are living in the new millennium.

megalith6
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Re: North Doors?
indiagold wrote:

now that's an interesting one as the high point overlooking the Mersey at the Dingle doesn't actually have a name,but looking at the A-Z it will be the point around High Park street.
what I could do is look at James Stonehouses Streets of Liverpool and see if there is any reference to the locality and also the history of Toxteth Park a royal hunting ground.

The place-names Mersey and Liverpool are fairly opaque, they tell us very little in terms of folklore.

Are you sure this is the only local high point please? You have a Mossley Hill nearby a St Michael's Hamlet (several churches) in this area.

Am wondering if the lady associated with gold and silver is possibly a folk memory of a local solar deity, the high point would have been a sacred hill top. Later cultures often claimed these elevated sites under the name of St Michael, as at St Michael's Mount, Cornwall.



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