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Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?


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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
MacNova wrote:

Now my guess would have been Milesians come from Milesia.

It's like the Dalcassians.  They're the decendents of Cormac Cas, not that they're from somepace called that.

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MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 But there was a city state in Ionia called Milesia just south of the western most boarder of Scythia. A seagoing people called Milesians. And they had colonies in Southern france and in eastern Spain. Along with many Pontic colonies.

martinwall
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

Robert Graves had a theory that the Tuatha De Danaan migrated up the Danube and into Denmark (the Amber route) and then crossed over to Britain in 1470 BC and then into Ireland. He postulated that both the river and the country were named after Dana/Danu in his epic "The White Goddess". The Danaans were also linked to the Nemedians, one of the waves of settlers recorded in the Leabar Gabhala Eirean or "Book of Invasions" and the vconnection with the Scythians and Iran could be Magi, Scythian priests who settled near Raga in Iran. The Danaans were exemplary for their magical arts. I may be wrong on this but I thought the Celts/Gaels learned the use of the chariot from the Greeks, though they learned about horse-shoes and reigns from the Scythians. The Milesians or "sons of Milo or Mil" were Celt-Iberians and when they came into Ireland defeated the Danaans in the battle of Moytura. In legend the traty which followed saw the Danaans banished to the "hollow hills" of the underworld and the islands off the Atlantic coast, with the Gaels having suzerainty above ground (thus the origins of the "little people" who fear Iron). The words "Gal" or "Wal" deignate these Celtic peoples as in Galatia, Galicia, Gaeltacht etc. or Wallachia, Wallonia, Wales etc. The Milesian emigration into Ireland (and possibly Siluria --- South Wales) pre-dated the Roman incursions by some time if the Book of Invasions is not mere legend (as I like to believe). They are supposed to have wandered all over Asia, North Africa and Europe before making it over to the islands. Both Celts and Scythians originated in central Asia and were two of the "barbarian" peoples recorded by the Romans, the others being the Libyans and Persians. There must have been much interaction between them during their folk wanderings, and Jean Markale the Breton Scholar has very interesting theories about this in his excellent researches on the Celts.

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

Well I can find no fault in anything you have expressed Martin. Myself I am no scholar on ancient Irish history. But while doing a geneaeology for my wife. Then it struck me, there is something wrong with this lineage. Not the History but the Chronology.

You see there is not enough people to account for the time taken to go from St. David of Scotland to Adam even when you exclude adam to say magog the generations gap is 46 + years.

So I used the 20 year standard generation to compile a list. This just gives a birth date for the next generation at 20 year intervals. it is not dependant on the age of the person just allocates 20 years between generations. So 5 generations per century and so on.

On from St. David I went to Mil Espaine. When I got to Mil I wondered why is this the only fellow without a name and just a title? At any rate I finished off with a date of 343 BC for Mil Espaine. I checked the dates with the 4 masters... and I was off by in some cases 1000's of years.

So I concluded I was miserably wrong scrapped the whole spread sheet and started again came up with a date of 343 BC again. One of the 4 masters had to be right I could not be right and the 4 masters wrong. But try as I may I could not get close to their dates. I started to read all I could on Mil Espaine.

From the Book of Invasions Vol II

...Three other months had they on the sea, till they reached Egypt: that was at the end of 1,354 years after the first Taking of Ireland by Partholon. Pharoah Nectanebus was king of Egypt at that time. He is the thirty-fifth king after the Pharaoh who was drowned in the Red Sea. Now it was in that time that Alexander the Great, son of Philip, came into Asia and arrived in Egypt, and brought Egypt into obedience to himself, laid Egypt waste, and drove out her king Nectanebus from Egypt into Eithiopia; and a captial city, called Alexandria, was founded by him in Egypt.


Again from Vol II

...Now Pharoah had a daughter named Scota, and Mil asked for that maiden, and Pharoah gave her to him: and that Scota bore two sons to him, Amorgen Glungel and Eber their names. It is then that Alexander, king of the world, drove out that Pharaoh, for he was not submissive to him, and expelled him southward into southern Eithiopia... 
Alexander the great 343 BC
Mil Espaine 343 BC
Nectanebo II (ruled 360 - 343 BC)

also known by the name Nakhthoreb, was the third and last king of the Thirtieth dynasty of Egypt and also the last native Egyptian ruler of the country in antiquity.
By these exploits Milesius found great favour with Pharaoh, who gave him, being then a widower, his daughter Scota in marriage; and kept him eight years afterwards in Egypt. 

On the inside of the Pharoah's unused tomb is this inscription


child birth: Wehrir [?]
child birth: Colpa [?]
child birth: Amyrtaeus (Amenirdisu) [?]
marriage: # Galamh ? (Milidh) [?]
< -343? title: Princess of Egypt

I call her Amy The Scota. Wife of Mil Espaine. 

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
MacNova wrote:

You see there is not enough people to account for the time taken to go from St. David of Scotland to Adam even when you exclude adam to say magog the generations gap is 46 + years.

That's because Lebor Gabála Érenn is largly fiction.  'Anonymous' took existing Celtic myth and epic poetry, Augustine's De Civitate Dei, portions of several histories and the Bible and made a 'Greatest HIts Remix'.  It proved so popular that several dozen versions were known by the end of hte 13th century, having upwards of 130 different poems in one version or another, of which five versions have made it down to us.

(I mean, really, 'The Solider of Hispania' has two sons who's names mean 'Ireland' and 'Irishman'' in middle irish gaelic. )

In reality, as O'Rahilly points out, the dates in Lebor Gabála Érenn work out that 'Éremón''s real name was Túathal Techtmar and he was an invader from Spain.  HIs supposed brother, who was really 'Mug Nuadat' (Slave of Nuada) but who's given name was most likely Éogan, was the last arriving invader (until the English) and set himself up as 'King of Munster' and challenged Túathal's grandson Conn of the Hundred Battles for the rule of all of Ireland, splitting the island in half, only ot unite it again by an arrainged marrage between thier children. 

Mug's son, Ailill Ollamh, then divided his kingdom between his four sons, creating the four classical kingdoms of Ireland. 

And don't get me going on Robert Graves.  The White Goddess was good poetry, but an abomination of history and folklore.  By Graves own admission, he was not writing about history or fact, or even reality, but his own theory about the realtionship between poetry and the thought process of the period.  His work remains the greatest source of misinformation on celtic paganism in print.

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 Well as I said I do not know about Irish history and never read Graves. What I am looking at is the Chronology not the fact or myth about the history. All you can work with is what you have before you. What I found did not add up but when I applied simple logic it made sense and more importantly added up and was reconsiled by the history itself. ANother time line that overlapped was during the time of St. Patrick a tale tells of him speaking to the ghosts of 2 dead kings. When my chronology is applied the 2 kings actually lived in the time of the Saint.

I think what may have happened is that the monks of the day in an attempt to preserve the history and at the same time complete it. (Take it back to Adam) Used the best dating system they had at the time the bible. The dates the monks knew of were related to the biblical dates so they knew all men related to Adam so the made the chronology fit the history to complete the line of Kings.

But I don't think they fabricated the history I think its a matter of the Irish history had no system of dating and they naturally overlaid it on the biblical dates they believed to be well and true. 

martinwall
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

Well, this is a pretty kettle of fish! As a new member I am most impressed with the standard of debate on this particular forum, and especially MacNova's insights. I am presently working on a personal chronicle of Britain (from a perspective of both folklore & legend and "history" with an overlap between the two). I would be most grateful if MacNova would give permission to quote the material about Nectanebus/Scota and the tomb inscription as an amendment to Graves's theories (which I do refer to) for purposes of balance?? It happens that although I know that his "analeptic" thought process tends towards fantasy as opposed to "straight" history, and that the book was completed whilst in the grip of a sort of emotional frenzy, I do still give it a credence others might consider unwise. I came to be interested in these matters in a similar way myself, and I am sure there has to be room for speculative and contentious theorizing as well as conventional research. With these reservations I still believe that there are shadowy truths about the immigrations into the islands contained within the "Book of invasions", and although they contain interpolations, redactions, falsehoods and misunderstandings, perhaps at its core there is a concealed truth. The Greek Pytheas was alleged to have visited "Ierne" and "Albionon" in the 3rd century before christ and if the chronology MacNova suggests is correct, then this would accord with other sea-going explorers who arrived at this time. Is there room to speculate that instead of a sea-going diaspora of peoples from the mediterranean as a response to the Indo-European invasions as Graves postulates, that the mainspring for this was actually the Macedonian invasion of Egypt many centuries later? From what I recall the Gaels had served as mercenary troops (I think as cavalry) with the Egyptians, and so it would make sense for them to seek refuge elsewhere once Alexander's conquest was a fait accomplit. My interest in this arises as a result of local research which shows that many hill-forts in my area, previously ascribed to the iron-age, have now been re-designated as actually much older, in fact bronze-age. Of course the Gaels/Celts when they arrived here would have formed a dominant aristocracy rather than a tyrannical or genocidal power, and probably overlaid and interbred with their more ancient predecessors. But this begs the question for me, who were these earlier people? When did they arrive here? Were they "Celts" or from more far flung and exotic places of origin? The stone monuments etc seem consistent with people with knowledge of geodesy and mathematical calculation on par with the Greeks or even Egyptians. Tacitus says that he thought the Silurians of South Wales seemed akin to the Spaniards, whereas the Caledonians seemed more like the Germans. As to Ireland, I am no expert, but I notice in the far west a distinct "type" of person sometimes who seem definitely "other", not Teutonic, not "Celtic" but different, more asiatic (George Borrow noticed similar people in Wales). These are not "expert" or in any way scientific hypotheses I know, but for me this is why Britain (and Ireland) are so mysterious! Whoever they were, wherever they came from, they had to sail here, and in those days that was an epic adventure!

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BaronIveagh
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?
MacNova wrote:

ANother time line that overlapped was during the time of St. Patrick a tale tells of him speaking to the ghosts of 2 dead kings. When my chronology is applied the 2 kings actually lived in the time of the Saint.

Becasue it's an alteration of the story in Agallamh na Seanórach in which the fianna warriors Oisín and Caílte mac Rónáin relate the stories of the fianna to Saint Patrick.

It's not necessarily that you were wrong at all in your chronology, it's that the whole document is riddled with anachronisms and has an agenda.  Remember Ireland in this period was a nation divided and besieged.  Everyone was looking for a justification for their faction's rule.

MacNova wrote:

But I don't think they fabricated the history I think its a matter of the Irish history had no system of dating and they naturally overlaid it on the biblical dates they believed to be well and true. 

It's not just that they changed dates, it's that thy altered events and then altered any copies of older documents they produced to reflect the new narrative.  We call it these days 'historical revisionism'.  Some of the people involved in his story died, according to the Annals, long before his birth or were born years after his death. 

Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima

MacNova
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

 Again Baron I do not know if stories were altered and with dates I'm not sure if there were any to alter did the ancient Irish have a dating system?

I just rectified the dates and found historical figures mentioned in the correct time periods. I mean really how could Mil Espaine live in 2700 BC and be in the time of Alexander? But at 343 BC its bang on and intersects with Nectanibus II Who had a daughter Amy who was given to a fellow that was known as Galamh. And this is just the tip of a large iceberg that emerges as you look into the people in the adjusted dates. Just imagine trying to find proof Julius Caesar lived if you were looking in 3000 BC for him...  He would be a myth there would be no proof of him despite copius writings about him.

And Martin you can quote anything I peck here actually I'm delighted anyone actually read it :)

Now where was I? .... ahh yes 

So this opened 2 more questions... If Mil was famous enough in the time of Alexander why is he just in Irish Annals? ... Enter Baron :)

You see I never believe anything I like to have a look for myself then decide. And if He was powerful enough to marry and Egyptian princess there must be record of him ... and if the princess was egyptian why is she called Scota? I call her Amy the Scota for good reason...I think she is a Scythian or Scothian. 

It is not uncommon for a King to give his daughter to an enemy King to forge an alliance by blood. If the King did not marry the princess was wed to the Prince. In Egypt as a show of respect any new princess offered to the Pharoah was taken and "adopted" into the family so if on ocassion the prince married an adpoted foriegn bride  the marrage could show as brother marrieng sister which was true legally so to speak but there was no blood relation.

Amy was just such a diplomatic gift... From a Scythian King to the Pharoah and as his kingdom was crumbling he in turn gave his "Daughter" to Mil Espaine for his help in Karnack over an 8 year period.

And once you have the dates correct the rest falls into place. Mil Espaine was indeed a Milesian not from Milesia but a milesian colony. And Amy the Scotia was a Scythian Princess, given to a Pharoah who was Given to a Milesian Mersanary Who served Alexander the Great. I'll see if I can dig out what I have found I have logged some 700 pages of information on the subject. Its a hobby of mine.

And Baron I'm not claiming a word of it is true, it is just what I found. Could be more wrong than right, I Don't know.

martinwall
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Re: Milesians ( Scythians ) Discuss?

Just to throw more in the pot... a tale from "The Yellow Book of Lecan" called "Do Suidigud Tellaich Temra" the "Sharing of the land of Tara" says:

"...we (the Gaels) were born of the children of Mile of Spain. After the building of the tower of Nimrod... we went unto Egypt...Nel son of Fenius and Goidel Glas were our chieftains...that is why we are called Fene, from Fenius and Gaels from Goidel Glas... in Egypt, Scota, daughter of Pharaoh was given as wife to Ne, son of Fenius. That is why she is our ancestor and why we are called Scots from her. The night when the children of Israel escaped from Egypt...and pharaoh's army was drowned, our ancestors did not pursue God's people and so feared the anger of the king. Fearing he would enslave them as he had the Israelites they fled across the Red Sea into the North West (of the world). They passed the Caucasus mountains, Scythia, India, over the Caspian sea, then into Europe, crossed the Palus Maeotis, Africa, then passed the columns of Hercules to Spain and into Ireland".

Since they wrote nothing down, and these tales are based on the mnemonic prosody of bards and druids, it is little wonder that they have been garbled over millenia, so dating must be an interpolation of the later monks, and the biblical embellishments are probably intruded by them at a later date. At any rate it seems a pity that there is not a British equivalent text (with the possible exceptions of the "Bruts" of Wace and Geoffrey ab Arthur, Layamon etc.



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